Talent Management: Awesome. Okay, so, Patty, welcome to whatever this is. The first... Really what I'm trying to do here is just have conversations with other industry players. Kind of understand how other people approach the OnlyFans management game. There's so much to talk about. Everybody, it seems, has a completely different specialty, a completely different approach, and a completely different, like, origin story.

Patrick Mulroy: What's going on?

Talent Management: Yeah, if you would for the audience, maybe tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into OFM and we'll go from there.

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah, man. OFM, it's been a crazy ride. I've been in the industry for two years, me and my business partner, my business partner wasn't able to join the call. So unfortunately he wasn't able to do that. But yeah, we've been doing this for two years. August, 2023 is when we got into it. And the story about how we got into it is kind of an interesting one, kind of a funny one, to be honest. Obviously, I was always aware like that people managed OFM accounts and like I actually met people like out and just threw...

Talent Management: Go for it.

Patrick Mulroy: Just talking to people, managing OFM girls and all that shit, but I never really thought about it. So I was dating one of twins, basically a twin, and they worked for their stepdad at like a real estate agency or whatever, something like that. And their stepdad and stepmom had a breakup and the stepdad was a real asshole and fired them both. Right. And we had always joked about like, hey, like, what if we made a twins OnlyFans? I would manage you, blah, blah. But then when that happened, shit fucking got real. Like it got fucking real as shit and I shit you not.

Talent Management: You can't see right now, I'm smiling like this under my mask.

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah, no, no, I shit you not. I sat them down. I put together a huge presentation about exactly what I was going to do to like make sure that they were going to be successful, like from the social media aspect, from the OnlyFans management aspect. Like I did all this fucking research and it went crazy. And obviously I didn't like have a background of managing girls, but this was the perfect opportunity to do that because this was my girlfriend and her sister. And, we would just I just knew we would be able to print fucking money with the twins OnlyFans with the way that they looked with.

Talent Management: Of course, yeah, absolutely.

Patrick Mulroy: with the way that they looked, you know, all that shit. And then, you know, when we when push came to shove and they said they were down, they're like, let's fucking do this. I'm in. But they got cold feet. And I'm not the type of guy who is going to be like, no, we have to do it. Like, that's just not who I am. I'm not going to be like, hey, you guys have to do this. But I also was like, yeah, exactly. We're not we're not here to fucking force these girls to do anything. You know what I mean? Like, no matter what, that's the number one rule at the end of the day. But

Talent Management: Right. Yeah. Yeah. We're not pimps.

Patrick Mulroy: But yeah, no, was like, shit, I just fucking did all that work. And I was like, God damn, like I was so ready to just go all in on this shit. And so what ended up happening is I talked to my business partner who was doing a little bit of drop shipping shit himself. I was like, dude, like I just did all this work. Like, let's let's figure out a way to make this fucking happen. And so that's what ended up happening. We started working together and then we got clients outside of like our friend group, people that we just met and that was it, man. And just we took off from there and now we're we're currently sitting at 29 very high quality clients who are netting about 463k per 30 days. Obviously, some of them are carrying a lot more weight than some of the other ones. Of course, we're scaling some, some are at the level where they want to be, that type of thing. But at the end of the day, that's the story, man. That's where we come from and that's how I made it here.

Talent Management: Wow, that's a lot of models. Of course, yeah. Very cool. So a couple of questions after that was very interesting, good way to start the conversation. What is your career background prior to OnlyFans? Like what kind of gave you the confidence to be able to say like, hey, I'm gonna go all in on this. I believe that I can do this.

Patrick Mulroy: For sure. Yeah, man. So I come from a heavy tech sales background. I started out, obviously, business development, grew into an account executive. I became an executive account executive and I was on my way to becoming a strategic account executive. But I was just like, there's an obvious ceiling with working in the corporate world. And it always bothered me in the back of my mind. I was like, dude, like

Talent Management: Got it.

Patrick Mulroy: I could keep putting my time and effort towards this and sure, I'll probably make like a good amount of money, but at the end of the day, you'll always be reporting to someone. You'll always be, you know, answering to someone. You'll always be doing something for someone else, building on someone else's dream. And I'm like, sure, maybe I'll take a pay cut the first year, two years, whatever it is. But like at the end of the day, like that's what it is. And so that kind of leads into, you know, what we're probably going to talk about in this call, but like my sales background directly had a direct impact on what we do from the obviously the chatting standpoint and just selling the content and just selling the experience, right? Like that's what it's all about. And so, you know, that's that that was my background. I was a top performer in those sales roles. But at the end of the day, it was just it bothered me that I was working for someone else. I was like, I know I'm fucking capable of doing some shit for myself at the end of the day, you know.

Talent Management: 100%. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think sales is like the highest paying job you can have in terms of like there's, you know, assuming that it's a reasonable sales job, there's actually no cap on how much money you can make. But you are still, selling somebody else's product. You're essentially, I think the thing about entrepreneurship, the thing about going into business for yourself, the thing that I've realized is that I don't necessarily mind working for somebody else if I believe in their like vision of the world more than I believe in my own. I've just never had that.

Patrick Mulroy: Hm.

Talent Management: In theory, if I met somebody that was like, okay, you're like, clearly you have a way better idea of what's going on around you than I do. And I find that really compelling, I would come work for you. If I found that I'd have no problem with that. I just haven't found it yet.

Patrick Mulroy: 100% 100% and like I hate that I just said like, I hate working for someone else because like that kind of shit that kind of shits on like the people who work for me, you know what I mean? And I hate I hate I hate the fact that like I would never want to shit on the people who work for me because it's like they do so much and they follow me because what you just said, they believe in our vision, they believe in what we're doing. And you know, I don't like to I I don't like saying that like too objectively. But like when you're working for a large corporate job and some guy you never met.

Talent Management: No, no, no, but I get it. I totally get it. Yeah, yeah. No, of course not. Yeah. It's totally, yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: Like it's a little bit different versus, you know, my, my guys, work directly with me. I speak with them every single day. So it's like, in my opinion, a lot different versus some CEO who I just have no clue who he is and it is what it is, you know.

Talent Management: 100%. So on that tack, how many full-time staff do you guys have right now? And how many like contractors, if you know that number off top of your head?

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah. So we only have like four full-time employees, like people who are actually employees, like 1099, we all that stuff. Contractors is pretty much everything. We have over a hundred contractors. Majority of them are chatters. Of course I would say like the split is probably 65% chatters. And then the other, you know, what is that? 35% are people who are involved in the management marketing and just quality assurance, all that type of shit.

Talent Management: Okay. Okay.

Patrick Mulroy: That is basically our breakdown.

Talent Management: Got it. Okay. And you said that you guys are pulling out, so you've got four full-time employees, army of contractors. That's, I think that's pretty standard, standard configuration for, for OnlyFans Management agencies. What would you guys say is your, so the thing that I kind of want to explore with this series, anytime that I'm talking to somebody, I want to really go deep on a specific element of OnlyFans Management. So for us,

Patrick Mulroy: Thanks.

Talent Management: Milki has been about organic social from day one. That's all we care about. We live, eat, breathe content creation. And that's obviously yielded us fantastic results, but there's so much about this industry that I don't know. And so for instance, like chatting, we completely outsource. It sounds like you guys do all of that in-house. So what would you say you guys specialize in?

Patrick Mulroy: Hmm. Yeah, man. So it's 100% chatting. Like I was saying before, you know, it's all about like my sales background and implementing those sales strategies that made me a top performer personally in those tech sales jobs or whatever it was and implementing those here. You know, obviously the sales cycle is a lot different and all that. But at the same time, like you're still wanting to give the customer a good customer journey so that they do keep coming back for it. And they become very high, high, high LTV fans.

Talent Management: Okay. Got it.

Patrick Mulroy: Right. That's the most important thing about what this is. Now, the other aspect of what we do is we're very heavy on investing our earnings into paid advertising. Right. So we do a bunch of paid advertising on everything that you've heard of, of course, like OnlyFinder, Creator Traffic, all that shit. Like we do ads there, but we have a bunch of different other ways of running ads too. Like, for example, we run Reddit ads to not necessarily OnlyFans funnels, but we run them to storefronts like Fourth Wall, for example, where then you can

Talent Management: Okay.

Patrick Mulroy: put the link in the storefront and then boom, you have a funnel that way where you're running ads on Reddit where you're not supposed to funnel to OnlyFans, but you get them there in this roundabout way. Or even 4chan, we've done shit on 4chan where we have like a CPM, like cost per impression. So you're paying based on how many impressions the actual ad gets. We've done all these different types of things. And so the point I'm trying to make is that when we run these ads, we have a bunch of partner agencies.

Talent Management: Interesting. Right.

Patrick Mulroy: You know, we've done some chatting for other agencies before. We like to keep our chatting mainly in-house for specifically our models because our chatters are very high value. We don't want to be, you know, giving them out to other people, but we've ran like a thousand dollars in let's say OnlyFinder ads and we've returned 10K from that. Whereas these other agencies who, who did everything on their own, like they did the same thing. They'll throw a thousand dollars at OnlyFinder and return like 300 bucks. And that's a testament to, of course.

Talent Management: Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: the ads and how we set up the ads. And I can talk about that a little bit more a little bit later, but it's also a testament to how we turn our chatters into these high performing LTV focused relationship focused chatters at the end of the day who are giving the maximum value that we can possibly get. Cause I fucking hated, I fucking hated nothing pissed me off more than throwing money at an advertisement and not getting money back from that. That just made my fucking blood boil. So like for that, making sure the bottom of the funnel.

Talent Management: Yes, of course, yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: The bottom of the funnel with the chatting is on point so that when we do throw things at ads or whatever it is, we can be confident that's going to convert at a high level.

Talent Management: Makes perfect sense, yeah. So, transparently, I have never even touched paid ads. So, like I said, is 100% about organic. So, while we're on that subject, just really quickly, can you maybe briefly explain very high-level overview of what your paid ad strategy is for maybe anybody who's listening who's not familiar with paid ads for OnlyFans? And then also, when you get leads from paid ads, do you treat them differently than leads from organic social? How do you differentiate and what do you see when you look at those leads side by side, how do you measure their performance against each other?

Patrick Mulroy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so first question, like how do we set up everything? How do we make sure that our ads are going to be performing better? So one thing that a lot of agencies that I've spoken with do wrong is that they'll set up the ads and just leave it there and that's it. Okay, it's set up, it's running. We have the CPC, for example, it's running at a 60 cents per click model and we're just leaving it there, right? What we do is that...

Talent Management: Okay.

Patrick Mulroy: My business partner is really the main one who's heavily involved in the advertising, but on Creator Traffic, you can actually test a ton of different creatives. Like you can change, tweak the bio, the picture, like just like the call to action, literally every single aspect of it. And we test like 30 to 40 ads per girl right off the bat. Like if we start working with a girl, but it's something that never, we never really stop, right? We're constantly like trying different creatives on Creator Traffic and what Creator Traffic does, which some of these other sites don't do, like OnlyFinder for example, doesn't do, is that it gives you data based on like their click through ratio, like how well an ad is performing, like how well people are converting to the OnlyFans. And the traffic from Creator Traffic, in my opinion, is not really that great. But the reason we're throwing money at it is because we're getting that data and we're saying, okay, this ad is performing so much better than these ads. Like we're getting that click through ratio data.

Talent Management: Okay. Sure.

Patrick Mulroy: And then we apply it to these other ads, which perform better, right? But you don't get that data from these other places. Like if you're running on Reddit ads or whatever it is, then you can get, you can get that information and really apply it to other areas. And like I said, you know, these girls will constantly, you know, be creating new pictures or whatever it is, and we'll give them guidance based on what we think is doing better. And if we're constantly changing it, like if you think about it this way, like maybe one day you put an ad on there and it doesn't resonate with the fan and you know, they keep scrolling, they miss it.

Talent Management: Got it. Right. You're not-

Patrick Mulroy: But if you put a different picture there and maybe the week later like, this girl, like looks like different or, you know, the call to action's better and then they click it. So like making sure that you're not just like setting the ad and for like set and forget it. Like that's just something that doesn't work. Right. Now your other question about how to treat these fans who come from there. We still have a high focus on the relationship at the end of the day. Like I know a lot of agencies say,

Talent Management: Sure, sure. Right. Right. Mm-hmm.

Patrick Mulroy: the ads or the fans who come from paid ads, they say, they're just there to try to, you know, bust a nut real quick. Maybe they'll buy one PPV and then delete their account. Then they're gone forever, which is true to an extent. It definitely happens. But we've still turned these fans into LTV fans, these relationship fans who stay for a long, long time and spend 10, 20, whatever K over the lifetime of however long they're subscribed. Right. And so our perspective is that every single fan Like there's three types of fans on OnlyFans, right? There's content buyers, people who are just there to just buy content. They don't want to chat. They don't want to talk to people. Time wasters. Everyone knows what a time waster is. Just someone who chats all day and never buys. And then there's lonely buyers, right? And in my opinion, lonely buyers are the main reason why OnlyFans is so like insanely profitable and how they make all their money because they're paying for the experience, right? They're paying to come on there and

Talent Management: 100%.

Patrick Mulroy: And at the back of their mind, I'm almost 100% positive. Most of these guys still understand that they're not directly talking with the creator in most instances, but they still do it because they want that fantasy. They want that experience. They want that overall just whatever's happening on there. Like it is what it is. Like, and they know they're still supporting. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. Like of course there's maybe, you know, a percentage who just is completely delusional and just thinks they're for sure talking. But in my opinion,

Talent Management: They're committed to the delusion.

Patrick Mulroy: Like, I think most of these fans know they're not fucking talking, but they continue to spend anyway. Like.

Talent Management: I agree 100% and I've seen that personally. I have a, on one of my creators accounts, we have a guy who spent just under 50K in the first 90 days as a subscriber. And towards the, I think it was at the end of last month or maybe the month before he started sending all these crazy messages of like, we send, you know, we'll use ElevenLabs to create like AI voice mockups of the model to say good morning or whatever. And he's like, I ran all these through this thing and it says it's AI and I don't think that you're real and blah, blah, blah. And like, you can tell like in their heart of hearts, they absolutely 100%. They know that they are not, they know that they're not getting the product which they are purchasing, but I just, yeah, I think that they're so committed to the delusion. And I think that that is an underexplored part of the, like it's something that kind of we all know intuitively as OnlyFans management agency owners. But I think very few agencies are doing the appropriate amount of work in exploiting that psychology, which is essential. Like that's where a majority of your money comes from.

Patrick Mulroy: They know. You have to. Yeah, you have to. You know, it's for us like those are the two main things like with the chatting in the paid ads. But like what really and this goes back to kind of what you're doing, like you're very, very focused on organic brand development and even talk about it like in your last video, like in that Inscript. By the way, if you're watching this podcast and haven't watched his fucking last video, watch the video about the Instagram. It's like a 43 minute video. It's fucking amazing. But one thing you said in that video was that it's not really enough to just be, okay, my niche is big boobs. Like, okay, like fucking great. Like your big boobs niche. And so this is like the third aspect of our agency is that you're not necessarily going to make life-changing money with just having really S tier chatting and then paid ads, right? You're gonna make a good amount, but what's gonna come down to for you to become a top 0.0 whatever percent creator is that you have to develop a really unique brand. You have to become some sort of...

Talent Management: Right. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: I always say it's like a household name where it's like if somebody brings up the name of your creator like, that's the girl who jumps on the car. Jelly Bean Brands. That's the girl who jumps on the car. Like that's how you fucking do it. You have to have something that's so unique and carve out your own, literally your own like brand within like a specific niche. And that's where you get there. Like it's just simply like, I'm girl next door. Like, no, you're like, yeah, maybe you'll make some money if you're hot. But like, it's just simply not exactly.

Talent Management: Yes. Yes. That's not yet. There's a cap on that. There's a very well-defined ceiling on that. I also think, and this is something that I want to talk with you at length, maybe towards the end of the conversation, about how those creators are going to be disrupted by AI, because those niches are so fleshed out. But I think that that's a really interesting point, not just because it's my agency's entire thesis, but also because you pointed out the jelly bean thing of this is the girl that jumps on cars.

Patrick Mulroy: Mm-hmm.

Talent Management: I think people underestimate, there is absolutely a luck component, but people underestimate how stupid the thing can be that totally defines your creator and it will carry them to millions and millions of followers. If you look at the, like the Island Boys, right? Like they have an entire, I wouldn't call it an empire, but they have a like substantial media cache that they developed by singing, Island Boys and kissing each other. It's bizarre, you know.

Patrick Mulroy: Yes. Yes.

Talent Management: That's all it really takes. And I think that the next level for me, the thing that I have the hardest time wrapping my head around that I see performs really well, is sort of mastering what I think Camila Araujo and Ari Kitzia and those creators, especially the Bop House Girls seem to do really well, is they have an intuitive understanding of reality TV dynamics. So it's like the same thing that makes Jerry Springer work, the same thing that makes Love Island work. There's like some...

Patrick Mulroy: Mm-hmm.

Talent Management: unholy combination of status consciousness triggers and like this pretty girl is making millions of dollars and she has no skills and I'm jealous but I also think I'm better than her at the same time. They scratch all these weird itches for people and those like for me I have to really I over intellectualize it and so it's very hard for me to create that type of content but I think to be really successful right now that reality TV like simple you know brainless drama you know I say brainless but But I think that I actually underestimate, absolutely, yes. And it's really figuring out how to appeal to that super broad audience in a way that grips them and feels real. But that's, again, that's a total aside. What I would like to talk to you about is, as you said, your agency kind of specializes in chatting. And it seems like you have a really good grasp of, you know, we're on the same page about the most important demographic, the most important people to reach is that lonely, that third lonely archetype that you mentioned.

Patrick Mulroy: People latch onto that shit, you know? Mm-hmm.

Talent Management: What do you think separates you from your peers in terms of chatting and your approach to chatting?

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah, so I mean, at the end of the day, like everyone knows you want to get to know the fan. Like that's not going to differentiate you from any other chatting agency or any other agency. Like you obviously, obviously want to spend time getting to know them, all that type of stuff. Now, the thing that really heavily differentiates us is that we have hundreds of scripts, but also sequence based scripts, which the chatters are well trained on to not just copy and paste or, you know, it's built into Inflow, obviously.

Talent Management: Mm-hmm.

Patrick Mulroy: And then we have managers and QA's and we spend a shit ton of money on these people who they very, very serious about how well the account does because we pay bonuses on how the accounts do to these people. So making sure that the quality of the chatting is so fine tuned to the point where there's zero questions as to whether or not I have to like go in personally and be like, like, do I need to check if this chatter is following the instructions? Like, are they following the directions? Like, no, we have so many people around the clock 24 seven, no matter what checking every single one of our accounts constantly to make sure that there's zero slip ups. And of course, you know, I can't claim that we're just perfect. And like it just always like, it goes perfect because there's always stupid moments where a chatter gets a little bit eager and just, you know, start pushing PPVs at weird times, like a hundred percent. But like for us, the thing that really, really gives us an edge is the fact that we have really, really intelligent people.

Talent Management: Right. It's always a margin of error.

Patrick Mulroy: Constantly watching the chats no matter what and we have these tools to these chatters That are available to them with these sequence based scripts to make their lives easier when it comes to managing high traffic accounts Right, like if it's one thing to just be like hey chatter like you have to come up with everything on your own always to make sure that you're you know entertaining these fans and then what happens is that you lose, you know, The average response time goes down, but we're giving them the tools to make it faster. Another thing I it's kind of funny I joke about this, but you know, we'll we'll sign a new creator, right? And they'll, you know, as you know, these creators, sometimes they have thousands of pieces of content in their vaults. We literally pay a guy to go in and sort the entire vault, label every single piece of content, put it together in folders, whatever it is, to make sure the chatter's lives are as easy as possible. So I joke about it because it's like we pay a guy to literally watch porn all day and just label what he sees. And it's hilarious.

Talent Management: Yes, to watch and categorize. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: Literally, that's his job only but it takes time because obviously there's like 10 minute videos in there So like he's sitting there all day just watching porn all day and it's just like it's so funny to me because you think about going like your corporate job and it's like Imagine if I was sitting there watching porn all day fucking and someone cut but it's the opposite here It's like, no good job. Like I'll give you a bonus for doing extra today, by the way shit like that, but

Talent Management: Tough job. Yeah. It's, in a lot of ways, I think we probably have the funniest job in the world. Stuff like that is obviously hysterical. The other day I'm looking at, I'm doing a competitive analysis for one of my consulting clients. So I just have my 49 inch ultra widescreen monitor is just pages and Instagram pages of girls twerking. And my girlfriend walks in and she sees me and she goes, honey, you work so hard.

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah. I love it. Yes. That's the key. Having a girlfriend who's totally cool with this. I'm not with that girl anymore, the twin. I have a new girlfriend now who loves what I do. So that's another aspect, but that's aside the point. But no, like going back to your point about like what makes us different, like I'm so obsessed with just making sure that the chatter's lives are as easy as they possibly can. Cause if you're, you're asking them to, you know, come up with their own scripts and come up with their own lines and then also, you know, try to navigate the vault without any direction and finding videos to sell and sexting and not giving them like their easiest possible thing. Then what you're doing is you're taking away efficiency and efficiency and just quality. Like if you're, if you're making them do all this shit, the quality is going to drop and you're just not going to be able to keep up, right? Especially with these high traffic accounts who are juggling 50 chats at the same time, a hundred, whatever it is, you know I mean? Like, and of course we have multiple chatters assigned to those types of accounts, but you know, it's, you can keep up if you give them.

Talent Management: Yes.

Patrick Mulroy: the right tools, the right setup, and you're making sure that you have the right guidance. Like our chatting managers are fucking amazing at giving coaching. Like I'll, I'll jump in and do spot checks here and there just to see like, Hey, how's coaching going? Everything like that. And it's just like, I'm super satisfied with how all that shit goes. And of course we're not perfect. Like I said, you know, there's moments where it's like, okay, I shake my head. It's like, what just happened here type of thing. But you know, the important thing is like, I try to be personally involved with it as much as I can too. Right. And not, not, not to be an asshole boss, not to be a

Talent Management: Right, yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: a prick, but you have to, there's layers of accountability. So I want to double click on one thing really quick. You talked about managers and like auditors. What is the actual org structure? So what I guess what I would like to know is how many, let's say that a model has X number of like active subscribers or I don't know, what metric do you use to determine how many chatters get assigned to an account? And then subsequently, how do you determine how many chatters report to each manager?

Talent Management: Exactly, exactly. Mm-hmm.

Patrick Mulroy: And then do you have managers above those managers or do those managers report directly to you? Or what's that? What does that all look like?

Talent Management: Yeah, exactly. So we try to keep our response time between two to three minutes or less, right? We want to keep it as short as possible. Obviously, you know, there's moments where you want to be strategic and these models have a million subscribers on Instagram. It's like, OK, if you're responding instantly to every single fan, like that seems a little bit unrealistic. So there's strategies behind that about like, OK, this fan's been subscribed for X amount of time. Like you don't need to like follow or excuse me, reply to that fan like immediately. They know what we're about.

Talent Management: Okay. Sure. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: But generally speaking, like let's say for new subscribers, we try to keep it between two to three minutes or less. When we start to see that go up, then we'll sign another chatter, right? We'll figure out a way to hire another chatter, go put them through our hiring process or training process, everything like that. And then make sure that they're, that account is well taken care of, like, so we're not missing any chats, right? Or the quality.

Talent Management: So it's more of a sign as needed strategy as opposed to direct this many fans equals this many. I guess that makes sense because obviously every chatter is going to have a different capability in terms of response time and... Yeah, right.

Patrick Mulroy: Exactly. Some chatters are a little bit slower, but they're good. Like they're good chatters that you don't want to like get on their ass for, you know, if they're if they're chatting with high quality and intention of having a good LTV for those fans, like you don't want to get on their ass. Be like, why are you not chatting faster? Like you need to chat faster. It's like it's like I was literally like putting my fucking best possible like words into this, like into this whole situation. So it's like you always want to be conscious of that every single it's a case by case basis. Right. Now, when it comes to like QA's,

Talent Management: Yes, yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: and the chatting managers and how that all works. So we have QA's typically it's very similar where, you know, our lower traffic accounts, maybe we'll have one QA watching like, you know, three to four of those are heavy traffic accounts. You know, just one QA just going in all the like all their shift long, whatever it is. And of course it's all 24 seven. Like we never have any moments where these QA's or these chatting managers are just not on shift. We're just letting the chatters go. So it's another one of those things where it's like, we kind of look at it from a magnifier or

Talent Management: Got it. Right, always over.

Patrick Mulroy: like a macro perspective and it's like, okay, these accounts obviously don't need just one QA. We can have one QA monitoring for type of thing. And as the accounts grow, you know, the goal is to of course grow these accounts so they have more traffic. Then we make adjustments wherever it is. Right. So that's kind of the breakdown as far as that goes. Those QA's report to chatting managers. Chatting managers are the ones who typically provide coaching, right? They'll go in, they'll say, hey, like this is a great way that you handle this situation. However, this is what you could have done. This script right here would have been a perfect example for you to go in and potentially milk just a little bit more money here without sounding desperate, like, let's try to do this next time. And they typically implement it, right? And they follow up on it, all those types of things. So those types of chatting managers. Then we have... my general manager and then we have another chatting manager we trust really, really deeply. And I know this is a cardinal sin to some agencies, but we pay them really fucking good. And we have not had any problems at all with this so far in the two years of doing this. But we put these two people, the highest ranking people in the group chats with the models to communicate back and forth between the models. Because obviously the models have questions sometimes and just...

Talent Management: Right.

Patrick Mulroy: Give them, like you have a custom here. Can you do a verification video here? Whatever it is, you know what mean? Just to make sure, cause that's another thing we do is like we set expectations with the models upfront. Like, Hey, are you willing to do verification videos upfront? Like if we have those types of situations come up because that can turn a whale, you know, a person who spent a thousand bucks into 10K very, very quickly, those types of things. So, you know, them communicating back and forth creators so that I'm not, you know, facilitating a back and forth between discord and going back to.

Talent Management: Right, right, right, right. Right, because with 29 models, that seems like it would be quite difficult to be having all of those conversations simultaneously.

Patrick Mulroy: Exactly. So that's kind of the breakdown. We have the QA's who are, you I don't want to call them the snitches, but they're just the ones who are just in there just looking at every single chat. Then we have the chatting managers who are providing the coaching and going in and actually setting the schedules, making sure we always have coverage 24 seven, those types of things. And then we have the general manager and then one of our top chatting managers in the actual group chats facilitating the back and forth between the models and the creators. And those two guys, you know, of course they're not, you know, they have offsetting schedules themselves. They have days off, they have lives. It's not one of those things where they're forced to be 24 seven, but because the model situations can wait and we set those expectations with the creators. But yeah, that's kind of the breakdown of that.

Talent Management: It makes perfect sense. Quick question, because I actually also have a background in tech sales. Do you stratify your chatters? So are there like SDR chatters and account executive chatters or like, you know, basically for anybody that's not familiar with sales, but like junior chatters who would maybe be more like lead collectors who are pre-vetting to determine if somebody is likely to be a whale and then they get passed off to a closer or somebody who's better at handling like large accounts or relationship building. Or do you try to get all of your chatters across the board to a pretty, like, let's say an even level of quality that they're capable of playing all those roles?

Patrick Mulroy: The expectation is everyone's capable, right? Because it can get a little bit messy when you're passing people back and forth and maybe there's certain moments, because sometimes it takes a while to turn someone into a whale, right? So there's all this detail of conversation. if we're passing off to someone later on and then they milk them, sure, it probably would work. But the expectation is that every chatter gets to that level. Now, there are situations where maybe a lower traffic account, of course, will give a new chatter, will promote them up.

Talent Management: Okay, love that. Yeah. Thank

Patrick Mulroy: the ladder type of thing where it's like, okay, what do chatter will get? Not a low. I don't consider anyone to be a low priority account. Every account has the same level of priority, but we'll give them maybe a slower traffic account where there's less pressure, make sure there's coaching a little bit more involved. Maybe we have our, you know, more 10 year chatting managers on those accounts to make sure we're providing good coaching for them, whatever it is. But yeah, the expectation is to make sure that everyone can treat everyone like a whale unless they're obviously just like a troll or some sort of time waster.

Talent Management: Right.

Patrick Mulroy: or whatever it is. But no, another thing on that as well. So we work with creators who have free and VIP accounts. And with the free accounts, that's kind of an SDR situation where we've set up strategies where their sole job is to convince them to go to the VIP account. And then the VIP account, exactly. And of course, we pay them out on all that stuff where if they convert them, then great, we'll give you X amount of money, whatever.

Talent Management: Push to the Vatican.

Patrick Mulroy: But that's another way that we introduce kind of new chatters as well. It's like, okay, so, you know, here's the free account. Like, I just want you to have like a genuine conversation. And it's not one of those things where we just put them on the free account and just spam the link. Like, hey, subscribe to my VIP. Like, they still build a relationship on the free account. And then once they build a decent relationship, that's when they ask, it's like, hey, can you go to my VIP? And of course they pass the notes over to the VIP team, all that type of stuff, because it's not really enough to just, you know, spam.

Talent Management: Right. Yeah. Yes. Yep.

Patrick Mulroy: Hey, come to my VIP like every single conversation. So, and that's a good way to like really reinforce the whole idea of relationship first PPV and sales second, because if they're getting in that habit of, you know, Hey, I'm building a relationship with you because if you build a really good straw, solid relationship with the fan, it's so much easier to ask them to do something like, go to my VIP than if you're just like, Hey, go to my VIP because my nudes are free on my wall. Like nobody cares.

Talent Management: Yes. Right. Yeah, yeah, That's not right. Exactly. Yeah, that's that's the case for, you know, thousands of other other OnlyFans creators as well. So, okay, so on the subject of relationship building, what does the process of so take me through like the standard customer journey, somebody subscribes to one of your creators VIP pages, what's the first thing they see? How does the chatter sort of take them down the rabbit hole and guide them on the path towards becoming a whale?

Patrick Mulroy: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So a lot of times when it comes to people who first subscribed to a VIP page, like just, for example, they just go straight to the VIP. They subscribe. Of course you want to get to know them. Like I was like, I keep reemphasizing, but sometimes you want to hold back selling PPVs and selling content right off the bat. Right. And it's because you want to build that illusion of realism. Right. Like, like a lot of these guys, like you always see it all the time. It's like, Hey, can you send me a picture of you right now? If

Talent Management: Mm-hmm.

Patrick Mulroy: If you do, then sure. Okay, great. Maybe you'll get them into sexting, but usually they aren't those people who are asking for that. Aren't going to really pay. So what we found is that a lot of times holding back content and holding back sexting when they asked for it actually has a better effect in the overall longterm. And the reason why is like, think about it. A girl like, let's first of all, every girl fucking hates it when a guy says, Hey, send me a pic of you right now. Like in real life, like talk to any girl. They fucking think it's cringy as fuck. It's fucking weird. Like girls.

Talent Management: Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: Always, always don't feel hot. Like they're not in makeup in lingerie all day long. So we'll respond to be like, oh, I feel fucking ugly right now. Like, oh, I can't right now. I feel super ugly. And not only does that hold back the content, but it also like makes the guy feel like, oh, am I a fucking asshole? Am I fucking being weird? Like, I kind of feel bad. So when the time does come to sext or sell content, they open their fucking wallets because in their mind they're like, I got to make up for me being a prick. But at the same time, I don't know when she's going to be feeling sexy again for us to be able to have.

Talent Management: Right, right. Right, yes. Yes.

Patrick Mulroy: have a good time or whatever. So I got to make sure that I make the most of this because I need to have fun with this girl. This girl is so fucking hot and she is just my type and I just love everything about this girl. Her content is amazing. And so doing something like that, like holding that back and like kind of playing that, like I guess that the opposite of how you would expect a chatter to do can go a really long way. Now, of course, you don't want to do that with every fan. You just want to you want to you want to have your chatters trained so they can kind of tell which fans are the ones who where that makes sense. which fans it makes sense to just go ahead and just go all in for it, whatever it is. But with the customer journey, like every single fan you have to treat differently too. Like obviously when you find out when where someone's from or what they do for work, like I'm sure you can agree like a blue collar workers are typically the highest spending fans on OnlyFans like.

Talent Management: Yep. It's always the guys with who don't have a ton of disposable income and they spend all of it. It's crazy. Ex-military is like our that's our sweet spot. Like that's what we found almost universally across all of our like top 25 subscribers, like maybe 60% of them are either active duty or ex-military and you know, God bless. God bless. Thank you for your service. But also thank you for your money. Something about that that psychology I don't know if it's usually it's not they're not deployed or anything like that. It's guys who come back.

Patrick Mulroy: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Talent Management: And they you know their wife left them or that you know, whatever whatever whatever that seems like they have some sort of weird Like there's something about the sexual psychology of a soldier that is uniquely exploitable and again love the troops respect the troops But I will also take your money all day long

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah, I mean, they got to get they got to get they got to get there. They got to scratch that itch. You know what I mean? I mean, they that's what people are on OnlyFans for. They have an itch that they need to scratch, whether it's they need a bust or not, or they need to have something that solves that loneliness thing that I was talking about before, where it's like, you know, these lonely buyers that come on and even if they in the back of their mind, they know that I'm probably not talking to the creator like they hold on to that one percent chance. And, at end of the day, the girls, they log into their account and they see who's spending and they still.

Talent Management: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: will recognize, shit, like this guy is actually a huge spender. So they still technically do get a level of attention from the girls. It's just not directly through the chatting, right? Like the girls will see the top spenders be like, damn, this guy really took care of me. I kind of want to know who this guy is. So to an extent they get what they're looking for, but not in the way that they think. Yeah, exactly.

Talent Management: Yeah. Sure, just in direction. So, okay, there's one more thing that I wanna talk about as far as chatting, and then I do kind of wanna double click on the, because I think that the understanding more broadly, kind of the loneliness epidemic and the modern, let's call it the sexual economy or something like that, I think that that plays a huge role in why this business even exists and why it's as successful as it is, and I do want to talk about that with you. But the last question I have about chatting is how are you...

Patrick Mulroy: Hmm.

Talent Management: sourcing these people and then how do you like it sounds like your chatters in Generally, you're selecting for people who have a pretty high level of understanding obviously they need to speak good English in order to make these determinations and value judgments about What types of fans are likely to spin and what kind of what kind of touch they need? So, how are you sourcing? Where are you sourcing your chatters from how what is your selection criteria? Like how do you determine that they're if they're capable of doing that if they are in fact trainable and then how do you incentivize them to continue to perform over?

Patrick Mulroy: intelligence here. Yeah. So when it comes to sourcing chatters, obviously when we first started, we were just hiring people who had pretty much no experience because I wanted to hand train them. I would jump on like, you know, long discord calls where they would share their screen and I would just coach them through everything. And I was manually doing that at first, but over time, what we have now, as far as our hiring process goes, like I have my general manager who does a majority of the hiring. I trust him. His judgment is he's probably smarter than me. Like to be quite frank with you, he's fucking smart. Like as fuck so I try yeah no he's he's smart as shit and so I trust him with his judgment on these chatters and he's hired better chatters than I've hired and like I've hired some I've made some stupid decisions with hiring because you just I just this guy's the man and it just turns out not to be but usually like people with no experience typically are the best people who are referrals

Talent Management: That's how I feel about my chat manager too. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: with no experience are the best because they are so dedicated and they don't want to let their friend down over here, right? They don't want to let their friend down, but they also like, shit, this is my one chance to like get some experience. Like I got to make sure that I fucking do this shit right. So of course we put them through, you know, the whole nine yards typing test, English test, all that type of shit. Make sure that they're on point with all that. That's first, first step. If they, then we get a list of all the applicants based on their performance and all that shit. Obviously we take that at face value. We, we still interview everyone. We still have like a 10 minute conversation.

Talent Management: Okay. Right.

Patrick Mulroy: with every single person just to get to know a little bit about what they're looking for, all that type of stuff. And you can kind of get their vibe. Like if they actually have a personality, they actually, you know, sound like they're intelligent enough to pick up some of the training things, that type of stuff. So they'll go through those, those process. Once we do that, we then we'll then narrow it down to, you know, the short list, whatever it is. And then we'll have three of our chatting managers go in and actually have a conversation with them. We have two specifically who are spearheading this right now, and have those kinds of final interviews and kind of talk to them about terms of service, just overall psychology, like things that you would just want, expect to be common sense. Like we're not expecting them to like know how to sell content on OnlyFans. Like that's what our job is to train them to do that. But we're expecting them to have a level of intelligence in certain situations where it's like, okay, this guy knows how to get in and out of situations. have social cues. They understand things that you're actually looking for, right? So.

Talent Management: It's context sensitivity is maybe the right word for that measure of intelligence.

Patrick Mulroy: Exactly, exactly. So putting them through that process. So basically it's the tests, then the short calls with everyone, then the short list, and then the more in-depth interviews, and then the job, right? Then we have our training process, which I have various SOPs, Loom videos. They go through, they work with chatting managers as well, make sure they're on board. They typically have a pretty long waiting period too, before we put them in. Because we always have a backlog of chatters who are waiting to get basically positions and

Talent Management: That's great.

Patrick Mulroy: Because we have to make some quick, a lot of times, like, we can't be afraid to let a chatter go, right? Like we can't be like, it's going to be such a pain in the ass to get a backfill here. Like, I can't, like if someone continuously fucks up a lot and can't figure out a way to implement feedback, like we have to be able to just say, okay, goodbye, and just bring someone else in who we're confident could take over very, very easily. So we have a good backlog of chatters. Usually we try to keep like five to seven chatters who are just waiting and they understand like, they're not going to get an account right away type of thing. Like, and of course they might, if we sign a new creator who were like, okay, this is a really good creator. We need a new chatters on the account. Like let's go type of thing. But this gives us time to like make sure they actually reviewed the videos. Like we make them write up entire notes on everything that we give them. So they understand how it works. Like training on Inflow itself, like training on all the scripts. When would you use this script? When would you use this script? Like explain to us your actual understanding of everything. So they have a really long time to really get trained up on that so that we're not just throwing somebody on like last minute, like get on here and just learn everything at the same time. Let's fucking go. So that process is super important. I think that's something that separates us is that, you know, it's it's something that's so thorough and we have to be so sure on that because, you know, we've we've run into instances where we've hired like an absolute rock star. Crushes the interview does everything right but that we found out that this guy he's actually he does all the interviews and then what he does is that he just throws someone in underneath and just they do the job and he takes the cut and pays that person like a lower percent. It's just a rat

Talent Management: What the fuck? That's crazy. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah, it's it's fucking rat situation. So we you know on discord We make sure the people are on live calls while they're chatting so we could be like hey fucking turn on your camera right now Pull up your ID and put up your next to your face. Make sure you're actually chatting so because we don't want to be outsourcing that shit, you know, it's the whole discord system that and what that wasn't even my idea. That was one of my team members ideas is just so important to be able to like make sure they're always sharing their screen. They can jump on camera if they need to make sure if there's any sketchy shit going on. So that's that's all very tight with us.

Talent Management: Nice. That's actually something that's worth double clicking on actually really quickly. I have been, I think, extremely fortunate in that I have yet to be the victim of any kind of like scam. I haven't dealt with any scammy vendors. Everybody that I've paid to do a job has done the job. And I've been doing this for like two and a half years now, something like that. But I think that because this is, you know, I don't show my, like lots of people don't reveal their identities. There's a lot of anons in this industry.

Patrick Mulroy: Mm-hmm.

Talent Management: And so reputation is difficult to develop, I think, and it's hard to get a real sense for like how trustworthy people are. And I think that there's a lot of scamming that goes on just sort of the nature of the industry is kind of black hats, a lot of younger guys, a lot of like low impulse control, everybody's in it for the Lambo and the fast money.

Patrick Mulroy: Yep.

Talent Management: Do you have like, have you developed kind of a bullshit detector or like a sense for that now that you've had issues with like hiring chatters and you kind of, what are the signs that you look for that somebody might be a bad faith out there?

Patrick Mulroy: 100% 100% and it's the thing that you really look for is it it's very obvious and this goes hand-in-hand with like the fact that we have QA's just constantly watching shit it's very obvious because our training like the training materials that we have and everything we have it's very thorough and We we don't put them on an account until they really point out and really confirm They actually read everything so if they go through that process and we put them on an account and we immediately see like Idiotic mistakes that are like dude This was literally like the number one thing not to do that like you literally wrote in your notes that you made like very clear so like I guess upfront like it's kind of hard to tell that but like if once they start chatting and you see something weird going on see something like not Like how it should be like we'll just take them right off immediately and be like, okay See you later. Like we just won't even hesitate on that. So and I think that's a really big part about it because like the high

Talent Management: Yeah. Got it. Got it.

Patrick Mulroy: hiring people is such a fucking pain in the ass, but because we have such a system of always finding new people and always like having things out there like, Hey, hiring for chatters, like you kind of have to like, it's crazy how much you have to push it out there. Like, Hey, we're hiring for chatters. We need to find chatters. Our referrals are always good. Like that's another thing about reason why we like referrals is because referrals are going to be very, very, very unlikely to like be sketchy. Like they, their friend, like that's kind of how it is, but it becomes very obvious. Like you see it.

Talent Management: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Got it.

Patrick Mulroy: and we'll just get rid of those people. We won't even ask questions. We're like, hey, it's obvious that you're not, like, either you're not taking it seriously and we don't have time for someone who doesn't take this seriously or you're doing something really sketchy. So see you later type of thing. So.

Talent Management: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Okay, so is there anything while we're on chatting, is there any like kind of last words, anything that you'd like to say maybe to somebody who's either relatively new to the industry, like hasn't started an agency yet and doesn't kind of understand the fundamentals? I didn't even know, so this is a funny kind of side note. I didn't even know that chatting for like the first probably six months that I did OnlyFans management, I didn't know chatting was a thing at all. So we were just, 100% of what we were doing was organic social and then like insane PPV strategy. And I actually scaled accounts to like 40, 50K a month just on PPV strategy, which was insane. And then we figured out chatting and I was like, this is how everyone's made it. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah. Mass PPV. No shit. Wow, that's fucking props to you, Props to you. This is where the money's at. I just five X'd my money. Yeah. No. I would say like one thing, and this kind of just goes into the whole OFM industry in general. Like if you're gonna like learn something, whether it's chatting or you like want to go more heavily into something else, like go all the way the fuck in, right? Like you have to go all the way the fuck in. Like if you're going to make chatting your baby, like kind of how we did with ours, where we Like my business partner is like heavy on the marketing side and does a lot of the marketing shit, but I personally took that chatting as my baby. Like that was my thing that I absolutely wanted to go all the way in, like do it. But if you are like, and in my opinion, marketing is the most important part about, if I'm like bar none, like it's, it's like, you're as more important than chatting. I just made my blood boil to see marketing dollars get wasted. So I just, I had to do it, but

Talent Management: Yeah. Of course, no, you need everything. I mean, it's a completely coherent system. Like, you can't have one without the other.

Patrick Mulroy: Exactly. So the point I was trying to make was just like, if you, if you do it, go all in, but if you don't figure out a way to outsource it to someone, you can a hundred percent trust and then go all in on whatever thing that you are trying to go on, whether it's organic marketing on Instagram, whatever the fuck it is, like don't take on chatting and trying to also be an expert at Instagram organic marketing. Like you're going to fail. Like one, one or the other is going to take a backseat and you're going to have shit quality on one.

Talent Management: Yes.

Patrick Mulroy: or the other, or they're both going to be shit. I don't know. But I would say like, don't fucking, don't fucking like, like either have a business partner who goes all in somewhere else and then you go in on chatting or figure out a way to outsource it to someone you genuinely trust and actually is going to get you results. kind of similar to what you're doing where you have it outsourced to whoever to maximize. So.

Talent Management: Yeah, exactly. I was lucky enough to find Shane, who for anybody who doesn't know Shane Carroll Francis is, he's a great dude. He runs the group chat, which is how Patty and I actually came to know each other. But he's the one who introduced me to my current chat manager. And I think I was actually his first client and the guy's just an absolute stud. So I kind of took a chance on him and have just been so unbelievably grateful. But I think

Patrick Mulroy: BEAST

Talent Management: To your point, if you are gonna go that route and you're gonna hire a chat manager, I'm completely comfortable admitting I got extraordinarily lucky, because I have heard of people getting absolutely fucked. Stealing clients, all that. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah, well, yeah, when we first started with 100%, yeah, you got to be careful. But yeah, it's, there's good chatting agencies out there. They exist, and they're dedicated to chatting. But you you hear those horror stories too. Yeah, sometimes it just comes down to just getting lucky. You know, the and we could talk about this too, like having a solid network is like one of the biggest pieces of value as an agency you could bring to the table for your creators.

Talent Management: Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: Right? Like these creators come to the table. I was like, how do I do this? Or how can I get my Instagram unbanned or how can I do this? Blah, blah. Like you as an agency should have a network to be able to get whatever they're asking for or whatever might need to be accomplished done quickly and easily without any headache on their end. So they can continue to do what they need to do to make content and make sure that everything's a well-oiled machine. Right? So, you know, like, like having the network with Shane and Shane's fucking obviously crushes chatting and

Talent Management: Yes.

Patrick Mulroy: I talk with Shane and Shane's fucking been great with the Juicy.bio stuff. And it's so important to just have a good network and have people who can, you you can trust. It's, and it's hard.

Talent Management: And it's hard, it's rare in this industry and yeah, very, very grateful to have, I caught that wave really early and got put in connection with a bunch of relatively trustworthy people pretty early on. And I think that's probably a large part of why I was able to achieve the results that I did so quickly. Yeah, definitely. You know, I'm, Milki is a solo out for me. So actually I want to talk about that with you. I'm solo, right? I have a full-time video editor and my girlfriend helps with creative sometimes.

Patrick Mulroy: Hmm.

Talent Management: but she's not like an employee, doesn't work on, you know, like one or two hours a week, if that. So it's really just like me alone in the middle of the ocean, figuring all this stuff out on my own. You have a partner. So kind of explain how that dynamic works, how you guys met, how you guys came to start working with each other, and what roles you guys play in the organization, because I think that's important for people to understand too.

Patrick Mulroy: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, 100%. So, you know, one thing I would say is like, it really depends on how you work, right? Like, and for your example, like to be fair, you like, you have your girlfriend who you were able to bounce things off of. Like when I started in OFM and like got into this, I knew he was the right guy to do it because he was trying his own business ventures, things like drop shipping, things of that nature. I knew him from 10 years back. This is a guy I knew back from college back. We went to Arizona State University. And I met him through all that shit. Everyone, ASU, big party school, whatever. But at the end of the day, he took his shit seriously. Smartest guy I knew. Like his background, he was in financial advising and super, super, super fucking smart. And he was on track to absolutely like he was a top performer. What he was doing. Like I was like, he's going to be our first millionaire friend when I was like 23. I was like, he's going to be by far our first millionaire friend. And sure enough, like he was fucking crushing it. So it just wasn't a very, very obvious point. But I would say like.

Talent Management: Okay.

Patrick Mulroy: You have to really kind of take a look at yourself. if you're thinking about getting into this industry and it's like, Hey, do I genuinely think I can put myself on an Island completely alone and not be able to bounce things off people and just be very confident with my decision? Or is it important to have someone else, a business partner who I can actually genuinely trust someone who works, someone who isn't just going to like leech off of your hard work, whatever it is. Like there has to be a dynamic of equality. and think about that, but then also think about.

Talent Management: Right.

Patrick Mulroy: Hey, where's the distribution of effort going to? And so what we found very quickly is that I was going to be more involved in being the face of the agency as well as chatting. That was my responsibility. You give the responsibility to one business partner and then his side was heavy on the marketing. He does a lot of the paid ad stuff that I was talking about. He does a lot of the other organic methods. And then we combined, we managed the relationships with the models, all of that type of stuff. there's a dynamic, you have to make it very clear about who has what responsibilities. And we even put it on like our operating agreement. Like obviously we didn't have an operating agreement at first, but like now it's literally in our operating agreement. Like, okay, Sam is available for this. Like Patrick does this. Right. So, you know, it's, it's, it's something where I've, I've talked to so many people where it's like, don't have a business partner. Like you can do it on your own. And then other people are like, no, you need to have someone who you can, like when you have those, those crazy days where

Talent Management: Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: You know, you have 12 problems and you're like, fuck, I don't even know what to do. Like you need to jump on a call with someone and just hash the shit out and get it done for me. Like it just made sense because I, I'm the type of person you need to kind of talk things out at the end of the day and come to a conclusion. So, it just comes down to the person. I had to be holder, you know,

Talent Management: Got it. Okay. That makes no, that makes perfect sense too. So you think it's like, basically I think the advice here is you need to evaluate yourself and determine like, are you actually capable of, of bringing a business endeavor to fruition completely on your own? Or are you the type of person that like needs to collaborate and needs to have somebody who's there to bounce ideas off of and, and pick up some of that slack for me, it was like, I'm used to just doing stuff on my own. And I, not that I don't, I love working collaboratively. but it kind of on the same tack as what we were talking about earlier with like working for somebody else. If I don't trust that other person's vision as much as my own, if I don't trust their judgment as much as my own, I can't really call them a partner.

Patrick Mulroy: Hmm. 100%. Yeah. And you come from an engineering background, right?

Talent Management: Yep, yeah, industrial and operations engineering. Yeah, very different.

Patrick Mulroy: Okay, got it. Yeah, with, yeah, very, very different. And I assume a lot of the work that you did there was probably along the lines of like, hey, you were doing a lot of shit on your own or was it very collaborative or how did that look?

Talent Management: So the organization that I worked for very, large organization, one of the top 10 in the world in terms of like number, we had like 500,000 employees total. Not that I was in charge of 500,000 people. That would be insane. But the nature of the work was somewhat siloed in that I was the primary decision maker over about 150 other people. So I had 10 direct reports and then 150, like staff or like union employees under those direct reports.

Patrick Mulroy: Right.

Talent Management: So different, you you still receive directives from the top there. It's not like I'm making decisions in a vacuum of like, we're just going to do this today. Like there's a job that needs to be done. In this case, it was a packet, like basically a inside hub operations. like freight management. But a lot of those, I think the managerial skills, learning operations, if you're, if you're an entrepreneur,

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah.

Talent Management: I think that that was even though none of the stuff that I learned in terms of like hands-on experience like I'm not working with heavy equipment I'm not driving a forklift doing only fans management I'm not nothing nothing that I'd like nothing related to industrial engineering directly one-to-one applies here But everything that I learned about operations management at a huge organization has been extraordinarily useful in every part of my career in every part of my life and everything that I've ever done so Yeah

Patrick Mulroy: Yep. Just from a leadership perspective, you know?

Talent Management: 100% yeah, also just being like being able to effectively manage. It's not just I think something that you probably understand this because you're managing such a large team. It seems like you're very personable and you take the time to actually develop relationships with your employees. I think that people people think they have this sense of like, well, I'm the boss, you have to listen to me, you have to get people to listen to you like the the superpower is getting other people to cooperate with you. That is the like single fundamental most essential component to success. If you cannot do that, can't accomplish anything. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: Right. and they have to respect your decision making, you know? It's crazy.

Talent Management: 100%. So, and also just like owning the fact that you're going to make mistakes sometimes and that doesn't like, maybe people will doubt you, but you have to regain their trust. It's, you know, you're, constantly like sort of tackling all of these things. So, yeah, not, not particularly related to what we were talking about, but still I think useful just advice for anybody listening. Like, that is the, the number one thing that you can, the number one skill that you need to learn in entrepreneurship is getting other people on your team. Like that's very difficult to accomplish.

Patrick Mulroy: And, the truth, the way to do that is getting them to respect, but you have to earn the respect, right? You can't just be like an idiot and just up there and I'm the boss. Like you got to listen to, like you just said, like you have to like lead by example, like not, don't be afraid to get in the weeds, like get in the weeds, get in the, get in the trenches with the guys. Like they will respect that all day long. And you'll like having people.

Talent Management: Right. Yes. And demonstrate that you can, perform every business function also. Obviously, the objective is to hire people that are better at that thing than you are over time, but at least demonstrating that you have an understanding of their job and saying, like, hey, I know that you might not think that this is possible or I'm asking too much of you, but I've done it. Here's the proof that I've done it. I think you're better than me, so I know you can do it.

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah, 100%. 100% 100% and that's that's what I love to say is like I know you're smarter than me. I know you're better than me I know you know this shit better than me, but like this is here This is what I'm seeing this is some of the things that I would like to have happen And this is what I've done to make sure that this is actually doable as well Like that's that's a huge part about it rather than hey figure it out because I need you to figure that out You know what I mean? So yeah, it's a No, it's fucking shit and you're an idiot if you fucking manage that way

Talent Management: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not a particularly effective management style there. Okay, so so kind of back to what I wanted to talk about earlier in terms of the I think I generally refer to it as like the male loneliness epidemic But I think that that's increasingly I feel that that's an incorrect name because it definitely applies to women too I think women are quite lonely as well. I think people Sexual relationships romantic relationships people are statistically very obviously like it's measurably there are less of them occurring people are having less sex than ever, people are reproducing less frequently than ever, people are dating and marrying less frequently than ever. And it doesn't seem like that trend is going to reverse anytime soon. So I think the question for me is, how do you think we got here? And how does that play into the proliferation of OnlyFans and I guess you could say like the intimacy industry?

Patrick Mulroy: It's, I mean, it all started back when iPhones were made, man. Like the fact that we've distanced ourselves from each other, but we can still stay in contact and still feel like I have friends who I haven't seen in years, but it still feels like we, like we talk to each other every day. You know what I mean? So it's like the, the, the loneliness aspect is that you're, you're kind of like tricking your mind into thinking you're never actually lonely. Cause

Talent Management: Mm-hmm.

Patrick Mulroy: look, you're on a Twitch stream with all these other people and you're seeing someone live like perform on the Twitch stream and you're involved with that or like on Instagram, like I'm DMing this girl on Instagram and we're like talking, but like I'd never actually even met this girl. Like whatever, like it's all about technology. Like you have to put so much more effort to go out and like it's, it's gotten to the point where it's like, people would rather just say, I can't, can't make plans because I just don't feel like I'd rather just stay in.

Talent Management: Sure.

Patrick Mulroy: And it's it's gotten so much more aggressive. Every single year it gets more crazy. like now people are, you know, they live in their twi- they go on these Twitch, I guess benders and they like live on Twitch for X amount of time. And like, that's what they fucking do. And people feel like they're in the community, right? They feel like they're involved in that community. They're all friends. Like everyone's like doing things together and it's like, okay, we're not lonely. Like, but you are not getting that physical touch. You're not getting that physical aspect. And so.

Talent Management: They're buddies. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: At the end of the day, like people are looking for a more intimate experience. Like sure you get that social experience from like Twitch and like, you know, Instagram and all that, but they're looking for the intimate thing too, right? And that's where this male loneliness is coming into play. And that's where OnlyFans comes into play, right? People come to OnlyFans. They're looking for an intimate one-on-one experience with a creator who they absolutely adore on social media. They love the content they make. They love what they do. And they're looking for that intimate experience with that creator. The fan to create a relationship is very, very, very intimate. Especially from the fans perspective. So I think that's where it really comes down to is that that's where it comes from and it's it's all technology based and it's only going to get worse like and we know we're gonna talk about this here in a sec, but like the AI related stuff like it's gonna be really hard like within the next X amount of years like obviously us like me and you we have a trained eye for it like we could obviously tell who's AI and who's not but it's gonna get to the point where you literally fucking can't tell like no matter how trained your eye is it is so

Talent Management: Yes. Sure. And I think that's closer than we might even think.

Patrick Mulroy: It's only going to get worse. 100%. Yeah, no, it's like we're like, you already talked about it yourself. Like you're using ElevenLabs or whatever it is to create voice notes and make sure like we're fucking building these like custom experiences for people. Like it's going to get to the point where it gets so fucking hard to tell. And it's just going to keep going through the roof. And it's just, yeah, it's, it's technology. It's making it's, it's this facade of making you feel like you're, you know, having some sort of like relationship with people in reality, you're lonely as fuck, right? Like these people are lonely as fuck. They don't want to admit they're lonely as fuck. And that's just how it is. That's and that's the world we live in now. But, you know, you can make money off it. So here we are.

Talent Management: God bless, yeah. And thank God we can. I think that's something that is, so before we move on to the AI conversation, because I do kind of want to present my thesis, that's my dog. Segwit, lay down, Lay down, sweetie. Shit what was I saying we'll have to cut this out I'll have my editor cut this out what you were talking about she's a Vizsla hunting dog she's a bird dog beautiful puppy shit okay we were talking

Patrick Mulroy: No you're good at that. What kind of dog do you have? Oh, okay. Nice. Yeah, that's badass. Talking about the AI, you had your thesis that you were going to talk about your perspective on the future with AI, but there's

Talent Management: What were you just saying? You were just talking about the... Parasocial relationship development, maybe. Okay, I guess we'll just go straight to the next... Yeah. It's all good, it's all good. Okay, so...

Patrick Mulroy: I'm trying to remember what I said too. I can't fucking remember. Ha, fuck. I remember. but male loneliness and we were making money off of it. Like that's what I saying is like.

Talent Management: Oh yes, perfect. Okay, thank God. All right. Yeah, I guess the question that I have is, there's no, I think it's pretty obvious that like, you don't really have an ethical, there's no moral quandary about what we're doing. Do you, I think that there's a lot of people who think that what we're doing is to some degree evil or immoral. So, and I think it requires sort of a,

Patrick Mulroy: Mm-hmm.

Talent Management: either more evolved or less evolved ethic to conduct this type of business. What are your thoughts on that? Like how do you think about this from an ethics and morality perspective?

Patrick Mulroy: Sociopathic. Yeah, there's a couple ways to kind of look at that. Like there's the justification route where it's like, hey, you know, if I don't fucking do it, someone else is going to do it type of thing. Like there's that route where it's like, I'm justified because, you know, if somebody's going to make money, I might as well be the one. You know what I mean? But I mean, the other thing is.

Talent Management: Sure.

Patrick Mulroy: For me personally, like I've always just been very focused on like, hey, make money however you possibly can. And like, I'm not going to say I'm a fucking saint. I'm not. I went to college. I spent more time figuring out how to wait, how to cheat on tests than I did to actually studying. And I know it sounds fucking bad, but it's like by any means fucking necessary, by any fucking means necessary. So for me personally, like I've never really had to go in and like have like a, you know,

Talent Management: Sure. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: Jesus, I talked to talk with Jesus about anything like this. Like I've just always been like, Hey, if the money's coming in, I'm going to keep fucking doing what I'm going to do. And it's whatever happens happens. But you know, you, at the end of the day, you've, go into the chats, you're, you're, you're helping some, like your chatters, you're giving them a stream of income. You're giving these people like your managers, you're giving them experience based on what you do as a leader. Right? So from that perspective, like you're giving people like genuine, solid, good life experience while working a job that they can work from home. Right. So it's like, sure. From maybe the perspective of like, you know, I guess ripping off or making everything fake, whatever, like, yes, like that can be looked that way. And it goes back to the thing is, Hey, someone else is going to fucking do it anyway. So whatever. But you are bringing good into this world to an extent with the people that you hire. It's a lot of camaraderie. There's a lot of people who are, you know, put in situations and getting experience who, you know, maybe never would have got this type of experience. And, you know, I'm actually I'm doing a trip with a lot of our contractors, like our main contractors. We're paying for a trip, flying a bunch of them out to Bali, actually. And like for me, like getting to know these people and getting to understand their story. And I'm actually probably I'm probably going to make a video like just having a conversation with some of my guys just directly on stream and just talking to them about how it impacted their life, like how everything like working with us is done and like.

Talent Management: Cool, that'll be fun.

Patrick Mulroy: I think that's the things you can kind of take away when it comes to like trying to justify what we're doing is that we're, we're, we're, we're a business, we're stimulating whatever, you know, economy that it is associated with these people were helping their families. Like our, one of our main guys, like he, he has like a huge family and he pays for everything because of how much we pay him. And it's like a fucking huge, like night and day difference. So, you know, these simp culture is not going anywhere.

Talent Management: Yeah. They're going to be economically exploited in one way or another. it's better to, at least we're value accretive in the sense that we're allowing other people to provide for their families. it's not just, there are the, just the Lambo guys though. I'm less fond of those.

Patrick Mulroy: You know, it's this is money that's going to be spent. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, no, I don't I drive a fucking I'll probably not get a new car anytime soon I drive a fucking 2014 Scion which is actually fucking hilarious. Oh 14 let's go. Let's fucking go Yes, great great fucking year. No, I'm like for me like my the money that I want to spend is spending on traveling right like I I fucking love traveling I love getting out there like I went to Argentina obviously if you're in this industry, you understand Argentina has a very very big footprint in this industry

Talent Management: Hell yeah, 2014 Camry for me. Yeah, 2014's a great year. It's a year.

Patrick Mulroy: We have a good amount of creators in Argentina. I was down there for six months until I recently returned. You know, that's what I like to spend money on is getting out there and developing relationships. I have business partners in Argentina who do some of the social media stuff for us as well. You know, it's just, that's what I would prefer. like spending money on our contractors and giving them, you know, experiences that they would want, would never be able to get. Like those are the types of things that I really fucking love spending money on. Like buying the Lambos and buying the fucking mansions and You know, the fucking sick APs and all that shit like, yeah, it's cool to each their own. Like and Shane talks about this too all the time. It's like money doesn't change who you are, just magnifies who you are. Right. Like if you're if you're a person who is very conservative with your money and you spend it on a certain certain type of thing, then all that's going to do is just going to take it from this level to the next level. You know what I mean? So that's that's the way I look at it when it comes to the money that we earn from this shit.

Talent Management: Yeah, sure. 100%. Okay, so the AI conversation, I think this is gonna be a good talk to wrap things up on because I think it is the clear future of the industry. So what I wanna do is kind of share my thesis and you let me know if you agree, what parts you agree or disagree with and then kind of present your own. So my thinking is that something that we were talking about earlier and something that I think that everybody is at some level aware of is. the customer understands that the service that they are paying for is not the service that they are receiving, right? They are being sold a false bill of goods. And there's a class action lawsuit against OnlyFans that states as much, it's obviously in the terms of service of OnlyFans as a result of those class action lawsuits that you may in fact not be talking to the person that you think you're talking to. It's explicitly stated in the legal agreement that is required for you to actually pay for OnlyFans content. So my thinking is that very, very soon we are going to have AI agents that are capable of basically producing the precise experience that we create, but cheaper. You can make the model appear, take on whatever appearance that you like. They can fulfill whatever your fantasy is to such a degree of accuracy that would be almost impossible to match for the average human chatter and likely even highly performant human chatters. And so my thinking is that really the only commodity that we're going to be able to provide into the future in that AI future where there's going to be AI chat bots and sex bots that are sophisticated enough to be indistinguishable from humans and that can take on whatever appearance and form you want and cater to every single one of your bizarre sexual fetishes. The only thing that we'll really be able to compete on is those parasocial relationships and celebrity status, which is because that's my thesis. That's obviously why I've developed Milki to be so vertically scaling and organic social focus, because I think that the only way to escape that reality is to build your creators to that celebrity status, because there's always going to be a demand for the commodity that is fame. People, humans are just obsessed with fame and they're obsessed with the idea of being able to connect with somebody famous and they are willing to swallow just about any delusion. in order to maintain that fantasy. So that's kind of my thinking. And I think that a lot of that, think basically what's going to happen is that the bottom 80, 90% of creators, not just on OF, but social media creators, basically the people that are turning out undifferentiated content, they're just going to get wiped out. Like AI is just going to wipe them out. It's going to completely replace them. There's no, it's not going to be slow. It's going to happen like pretty much overnight. And I think that that's probably going to happen within the next 12 to 24 months. What do you think about all that?

Patrick Mulroy: I think that's a very interesting perspective. And to be honest with you, I haven't really thought about it that way too much where it's like, you need to have some sort of defense mechanism, something along those lines. Like I have people and I'm actually working with three different developers right now on unique, like AI chat bots, things that we can implement. People will just hit me up. And so I know the future 100% with chatting, like chatters are going to be done away with. And it's going to be the difference between a good agency, like, cause agencies are still going to be around. It's going to be the level of AI chatting. Like how good is your AI chatting versus the next one? Right. Because it takes a good amount of manual input. You have to have, make sure you have some fucking good developers. And remember, like at the beginning with the AI chatting, like it might go down and then your entire source of income basically goes down because you don't have chatters to be like, Hey, can you jump on this account? Like we need someone to chat on this account while the AI is fucked up because you let them go essentially.

Talent Management: Sure. Yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: So, you know, that's, that's where the industry is definitely going now, as far as like the perspective of getting completely wiped out on social media, like with just AI models only besides the ones who are celebrity status. I feel like it's not going to be that quick. And the reason why is because going back to two years ago, like I remember seeing AI models and seeing them, you know, blow up and all that shit two years ago when we first started, were like, shoot, we got to get on this AI model. It's like, we haven't even learned.

Talent Management: Okay.

Patrick Mulroy: anything about OFM yet. So it's like, why are we fucking trying to do anything with AI models? But like, I've seen the progression there. I do think that, you know, you need to have some sort of following that confirms you're real for sure. But there's going to be an even higher emphasis and people are going to understand AI models more and more. Like the general public is going to be able to tell who's AI and who's not, even if it becomes indistinguishable from actually looking at who they are on social media. Like I think there's still going to be ways for where people are finding out who's real and who's not like the same way that there are people are trying to figure out who's chatting for real and who's not chatting for real on their OnlyFans. I don't know. I just I feel like it's the industry. There's still going to be people who are just seeking for sure, for sure. Real interaction, real creators, people who are on there no matter what. But, you know, for me, I just. I don't see it happening that quickly. I see it happening within the next five years. The next 12. I think that's a little bit too quick of a time. Now, with that being said, like AI chatting is basically here. like with how the shit's going, like the chatting is fucking here. The entire system being AI, I don't, I don't think we're 12, 24 months. I agree with your perspective of that's going to happen, but I just, I, I feel like that's too quick of a timeline based on what like I've

Talent Management: Okay, but you think 12 to 24 months is too short of a timeline? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm not even including what, sorry, and I probably should have stated this explicitly. I don't think that it's the only fan, the AI OnlyFans models that are going to wipe out that bottom 90%. I think it's going to be like this, I don't know if you've seen any of like the erotic chatting sites where it's either like character or scenario based. So right now the way that they function is you can select from like a list of characters or scenarios. And it's basically like, this is a, I don't know, a cat girl that you found in the middle of the woods or whatever.

Patrick Mulroy: Yep, I know what you're talking about. Yep, yep.

Talent Management: Okay, yeah, I think that those products are actually what we're competing what the what kind of the bottom 90% of OF creators are actually competing with because those are they're already getting this like kind of like sloppy undifferentiated experience and especially with like unmanaged models like individual creators who are at that lower tier are just like I'm sure you've like worked with models who have no idea what they're doing. They're like not chatting. They're not communicating with fans. That experience is already like basically been wiped out by the agency model.

Patrick Mulroy: Right.

Talent Management: So that's what I'm talking.

Patrick Mulroy: And I think, yeah, and I think like the creators that like we work with me and you, like they're well beyond the bottom 90%. So it's like, I think personally, like those creators like will be relatively untouched, but yeah, no, the girls who are just jumping on, like they got told that they, you know, they're kind of hot at the bar and they wanted to make an OnlyFans cause some guy hit on them. Like, like those girls will be wiped out. Those, those will be gone. Like for sure, which to an extent is a fucking honestly a good thing. Cause then it's just a lot less fucking annoying bullshit that

Talent Management: 100% Yes, absolutely Yeah, you should make an OnlyFans. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Patrick Mulroy: you know, you're dealing with at the end of the day, but no, to your point about the whole, you know, AI, like I guess that one question is like the, what you were just saying, like you log onto those sites and you get like that customized experience with, you know, Hey, like you interact with this, like how many people, and this is something I haven't really thought about too much, but like how many people would subscribe to that over something that, you know, where they're, they, they genuinely think they're dealing with like an actual creator, you know what I mean? Like, or they're openly saying, fuck it, I don't care, I'm gonna get off to this AI experience that I know for sure is 100% AI, I don't give a fuck, like, I'll put my money towards that. what kind of percentage of like the target audience?

Talent Management: I think a very large and increasingly large slice of the pie is, I think, the answer to that question. And I think it will be around. I do think that a majority of the intimacy product consumer marketplace is going to move to that, if not that precise business model, something very much like it, because it's so custom. So I think the appeal of OnlyFans is you have this intimate one-on-one experience with the creator.

Patrick Mulroy: Mhm. Yeah.

Talent Management: but it's still mitigated by, like you said, you try to keep response time to like two or three minutes. How about something that lives in your pocket that you can talk to 24 seven that never says no to you, that gives you exactly what you want every single time and can fulfill sexual fantasies that a human can't even fathom. So I think that that's what we're looking at the barrel of.

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah, I think that's... Yeah, there's people who like they'll just... It'll get to the point where it's like, okay, I know I've been talking to nobody, like not the actual creator on OnlyFans. Like I'm just gonna settle for something. I'm already accepting this is all a bunch of bullshit, but I need to get what I need to get type of thing. like you're gonna get...

Talent Management: Exactly. Yes. Yeah, yes. And I don't even think it's settling at that point. In my mind, it's a superior product because you're paying for the illusion of intimacy already. You know, it's already, you're paying for a mediated reality that's being produced by an agency through the facsimile of a model. Why not just talk to the AI, like cut out the middleman? And by the way, it's cheaper by a factor of a hundred, you know?

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah, that's true. Facts. Yeah. Yeah. Facts, man. It's and maybe I'm delusional and thinking that that that's a little bit further on in the horizon. But, you know, it's it's it's definitely something to be conscious of. You know, you always want to stay ahead of the curve with regard to anything, like whether it's, you know, getting involved with that. Like that's why we're already talking with, you know, like obviously AI chatting. Like we don't we don't want to like pull the trigger on AI chatting toward like in terms of like fucking making it so that we're fucking getting rid of everyone.

Talent Management: Yes. everything is immediately transitioned. Yeah, yeah, of course. Slow phases.

Patrick Mulroy: Exactly. It's definitely something like we very slow and like we just don't want to and to be fair, we're still going to probably keep a lot of the chatters and still pay them to be involved with the entire system too. So it's not like we're just going to be firing everyone. Like these are high quality people who we spent time hiring. We don't want to just get rid of them. Like we'll make sure that they still have work, things like that. But it's something that, you you want to stay ahead of. You don't want to be ignorant to the fact that maybe, you know, I am a little bit ignorant to it.

Talent Management: Yeah. Right. Yes.

Patrick Mulroy: But you know, it's something that you always have to be conscious of and you you bring up a very good point.

Talent Management: Yeah, just important to be aware of what's on the horizon. I think that it's 12 to 24 months may very well be too fast, but with the acceleration of these technologies, it's really tough to say. And I think also there's like, the other thing that you have to consider is that there are much more important industries that AI is going to disrupt. But it seems to me to be the case that porn is actually kind of a technological forerunner in a lot of ways. If you look at something like Pornhub's,

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah, exactly.

Talent Management: like backend architecture, their content delivery is some of the like top notch, you know, puts everybody other than Google to shame because they've had to develop such a sophisticated infrastructure for delivering, you know, streaming 4K video with a library that's, you know, hundreds of terabytes of content globally. They're one of the most visited websites in the world. And I think it's a lot of the time like

Patrick Mulroy: Yeah.

Talent Management: technology isn't driven by porn, but porn is an early adopter of technology. So I think especially in our industry, it's important to be aware of those trends.

Patrick Mulroy: Yep. I mean, AI, it goes hand in hand with this shit. ever since the beginning, you know what I mean? Like we've used AI, a lot of our scripts have been derived from using AI to build out those scripts, right? Or like using AI, like you said, like the whole voice note stuff, like you even use AI, even in our paid advertising, like paid ads typically do better, like if they have bigger boobs. So we'll obviously modify their fucking pictures.

Talent Management: Yeah. Juice them up.

Patrick Mulroy: Exactly. Just use AI. We'll put it through a filter with the AI and just fucking make them look better. And there's an obvious difference. Like it's a 30% click through ratio to a 40%, like just simply doing some shit like that. So it's like, it's, yeah, you're right. It's gonna, it's happening. It's already happening. You know, it's a matter of how do agencies adapt to still be able to provide value. I think what you said about getting these creators to celebrity status, these million plus.

Talent Management: Yeah. crazy. Yes.

Patrick Mulroy: followers on Instagram, like household name type stuff, like those creators are going to still absolutely destroy the industry until they decide to retire. Yeah.

Talent Management: Yes. Yep, that's our thesis at least. Okay, so I want to end things on a less doomerish, more positive note and give everybody who's stayed until the end a little treat. What is one tactic or tool that you guys have employed? Could be recently, it could be just like, what is one thing that you guys do that you feel like every agency and especially agencies that are early on in their development curve should adopt? What should they do?

Patrick Mulroy: So as far as like an early on like a strategy that they should be just doing right off.

Talent Management: Just something that you do that your agency does that you think more agencies should do. Just a useful piece of advice, something actionable that the listeners can walk away from this with.

Patrick Mulroy: So for me, like hiring someone and bringing like full-time employees on earlier rather than later, because I left myself in the weeds way too fucking long. Like I would have been able to scale so much better if I brought somebody on, like whether it's like, cause like I said, we have four full-time employees right now. Like if we brought on two of those people year one rather than year two and they got more involved in all the processes and they took over kind of like those CEO duties and like more in the weeds, like

Talent Management: Okay.

Patrick Mulroy: Our agency would have been scaled light years more. So what I would say is like, don't be afraid to hire someone. Like obviously take your time and vet people out, like hire somebody you know you could trust. And at the end of the day, like be careful about who you trust. Like we've had instances where people have tried to steal creators and all that type of shit, but like hire sooner rather than later. And like, don't be afraid. Like your money, like I, I know a lot of people that I don't have my money to buy the supercar. I want to buy it, you know, whatever. It's like fucking put that money towards.

Talent Management: Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Mulroy: Someone who you could pay a really, fucking good salary who can take on these duties you can trust. That's light years more important than whatever it is. Like we were holding on to our money and fucking twiddling our thumbs, like not sure what to do for the first fucking exactly first six, 12 months. We were just fucking doing that. We didn't fucking hire. So hire someone. Don't fucking put your don't save your money and like worry about shit like.

Talent Management: Yeah, sitting on a big pile of cash. Yep.

Patrick Mulroy: The more you fucking sit around with the money and like not hire someone to do some of those things, the longer it's going to take for you to scale and do whatever you actually genuinely want to spend your time towards. There's something that I remember you said the other day, I think in one of the group chats in V.E. Someone asked like, if I have 10K laying around, where would I put that money? And I think you answer that question. And you're like, I would spend that money towards anything that takes your time away from learning organic marketing.

Talent Management: Mm-hmm.

Patrick Mulroy: I would spend that time, spend that whatever the fuck it is, like whether it's billing, dealing with creators, whatever it is, spend that money towards that so you personally can learn organic marketing because that's the king of everything that you're dealing with here, right? So for me, like I read, like that's something you should take away is like figure out something, figure out whatever's taking your time and energy away. And yes, make sure that you get that shit off your plate because you need to be the absolute king of whatever you need to be. Whatever you see is the most important thing about your agency.

Talent Management: what you want to be good at. Yeah. I love it. Right? Because it's, it's just super important to get whatever you can off your plate. And that was our mistake. is that we, you know, we fucking twiddled our thumbs and worried about, you know, spending the money right places and just said, fuck it eventually and do that sooner rather than later. Don't fuck around like we did.

Talent Management: I love that, that's great advice. All right, well, Patty, Patrick, thank you so much for hopping on this call with me. I would love to do this again at some point in the near future. We can talk about whatever, maybe not chatting next time, maybe recruiting models or whatever you wanna talk about, but it's been a pleasure talking to you. It was lovely to meet you. Maybe I'll, I think we'll talk about it off the recording, but I might be coming to Vegas pretty soon, so.

Patrick Mulroy: For sure. Yeah, man. Yeah, man, we got a bunch of creators in Vegas. Right now I'm actually in California, but I'm bouncing around a lot. Yeah, man, let's fucking, maybe we do one of these fucking things in person, you know what I mean? So yeah.

Talent Management: That'd be great. How long are you here? I'm going to pause now.

Inside a 29-Model Agency: Patrick Mulroy on Chatting, Paid Ads, and Scaling Systems