Francis: Today I'm sitting down with Martin, the founder and developer behind OnlyFans API, a developer tool that quietly powers some of the biggest agencies in the world. We get into how he went from building one of the first OnlyFans search engines to powering the backend for million dollar a month agencies by automating the unsexy stuff like tracking links, revenue attribution, and reporting. And towards the end of the call, we have a great conversation about the future of the industry, trends in automation, AI chatbots, and what it's going to take for agencies to succeed in an increasingly competitive OFM landscape. So buckle in and enjoy my conversation with Martin. What was your introduction to OnlyFans Management? How did you get into this industry?

Martin: To OnlyFans management, I never really been involved in the management itself. I never had an agency, I never run an agency. All my life, all I ever did was create software and software companies. So that's how I basically got introduced into the adult space as well, because there's a space where a lot of tech folks or software folks don't really flock into, right? So the competition there, or at least at the time when I started, it was pretty low. Now it's getting higher, but it was very like basically blue ocean strategy or however it's called, you know, it's just like empty. No softwares are being built. So yeah, that's how I got into the industry back in like 2020.

Francis: So, okay, that explains how you recognize that there was an opportunity, what was your actual, like, how did you actually get introduced to the space? How did you recognize that opportunity?

Martin: So back in 2020, I was basically browsing Twitter and I saw a lot of posts with OnlyFans links, right? It was like the peak of Corona. Corona just started, everybody was locked at home, all of the girls jumped onto OnlyFans. And I was like, basically browsing the OnlyFans, right? But I saw like there is no search thing. Like you couldn't search for like cosplays, milfs, whatever, right? So I built one of the first OnlyFans search engines on the market. It was called Fans Matrix. I later sold it on to create the traffic, but it was basically like a website where you could come in and just type like cosplay, Asian, MILF, whatever, right? And it would give you like a list of creators who are like in that category and they have on OnlyFans. Like for example, TikTokers, popular girls, whatever, any category you want, you could just search for it and click on it and you would get to their OnlyFans. Later on, like two years after it became like this, you know, huge industry. Basically traffic is the number one thing that agency needs.

Francis: So what was the monetization vector for fans metrics then? Was it like pay-per-click or were you like charging people to be on the platform? How did that work?

Martin: Yeah, so, same as Google. You basically have a search engine that's public to everybody and then whoever wants to be at the top results for certain keywords, they could pay for that keyword and they would be promoted at like top of the search results for that keyword. So advertising was like the main business model.

Francis: Got it. And then walk me through kind of like starting from there. So you built fans metrics. That was your introduction to the OFM industry. You started making connections presumably with, as you were like selling this product and advertising this product, what was the journey like from there to now? What changes have you seen? Cause you're involved in a very different part of the industry than most of the people that I talked to on the show. The only other product developers that I talk to are usually CRMs or like, had Andy Woolmer on here. He obviously runs creator traffic. So. We're talking about a little bit different of a product. And from your perspective, as somebody who's never actually been actively involved in the management side of the business, what are the changes in the software development history, I guess, of the last five years in this space?

Martin: So as I said in the beginning, the competition is getting bigger. Like there are a lot more folks either from Twitter. I'm like following a few people on the Twitter who are like in the tech space and they're actually getting into the adult as well. But the main thing that changed is the agencies realized like they have to be a little bit technical as well, right? Because in 2020, you could just hire like 20 VAs, post some TikToks and it would go viral, right? If the girl's hot. But right now the game, from my perspective, it's switching or evolving into how can we improve our profits, how to better our operations. A lot of the smaller agencies are getting acquired by the bigger agencies. So there's the growth strategy for the bigger agencies to basically just do roll-ups and acquire smaller agencies. And for that, for example, software is very useful because you can just plug in their accounts and look at what margins. At what margins are they operating? How efficient are there, for example, free trial campaigns or tracking link campaigns? And based on that, you can basically get like a picture of the agency and make a decision based off that. Okay. How good of a acquisition target is this smaller agency that I want to acquire? So the evolvement of the market is again, they're just getting more technical and more smart about things. A lot of like the older folks are like more experienced folks. are getting into the industry. Again, also some 40 year old, 50 year old guys who are basically just doing roll up or smaller agencies and building like a empire based off of just acquiring agencies. They don't have like any of their own.

Francis: It seems to me like it's going to aggregate towards those big players as opposed to back in 2019, 2020, when you could even be an independent creator and kind of do whatever you wanted and make millions of dollars. It seems to me that the marketplace is a lot more competitive now. As these larger agencies start to roll up smaller agencies, do you think that the industry is going to just be dominated by big agencies in the future?

Martin: Yeah, well, it's the typical power law of any social platform. Like you usually get small amount of people or small amount of agencies or basically companies who are doing like 90 % of the revenue, right? And it's, I think we are at that point even now, like probably top 100 agencies make like 99 % of the OnlyFans' money. So yeah, that's like the answer to the question pretty much. I think it's definitely dominated by agencies and from OnlyFans' perspective, I don't think it makes sense to fight against the agencies. Like for example, there is the lawsuit right against like few agencies who do chatting, et cetera. I don't think that that makes sense like to fight against the agencies actually growing the platform or like the OnlyFans' revenue.

Francis: Let's get into, I want to talk more about that stuff later. Right now I want to talk about OnlyFans API. So, high level, what is OnlyFans API?

Martin: Originally it was just a platform for developers to build, for example, something like OnlyFinder or any search platform. But we realized like a lot of these agencies are coming to their CRMs, whatever they use, only monster creative or whatever, and they're just asking them for raw data. Like structured data, here is the list of our free trial links, here is the link, here is how many people subscribed, and how many basically converted to spenders and how much have they spent. We want to plug that into like our Google Sheets or whatever, we basically track which tracking link is posted where, so for example, slash C6 is posted on Instagram, slash C12 is posted on AnoLink.me or whatever, and we want to do any kind of magic on top of the data. For example, one of the agencies that uses us uses this to send weekly reports to WhatsApp groups with the managers like, okay, this is a very good traffic source and this one isn't performing that well, right? Before they had to basically have a VA team that would go through inflow, for example, and see how many subscribers come in through that link and how much revenue did it do.

Francis: So this is like a human person that's actually going and creating these reports and that's obviously like that's going to be there's going to be throughput limitations on time it's additional expenditure it can't be automated.

Martin: Yeah, it can be automated. And what we did was basically we built like this automated workflows through an ADN that just uses our API to do all of this stuff for you. So for example, it would go through your revenue or your tracking link report every four hours through like, let's say agency has 120 accounts. It goes through them four times per day. They're always up to date, 99 % accuracy in the revenue attribution. And this, by the way, I checked this with like inflow everybody. Our stuff is very good on the tracking link and free trial link, especially like the revenue attribution. And it plugs the data into Google sheet. And then once a week it sends a report to the managers like this free trial link is performing very well. It's from this traffic source. Probably focus more on that. And again, you get like the, if you are a big agency, you get the benefit of scale. where you basically see like, okay, this is working on this model. Why we don't just apply to all of our models, right? If you're a smaller agency, which by the way, we don't really like focus on at the moment. We only like onboard agencies that do at least a meal a month. Then it doesn't really make sense because you have like five, seven models. If you do it on scale, like 120 models, it makes much more sense.

Francis: So is that kind of your your target audience for OnlyFans API is these these big agencies like to your earlier point You have these big agencies that are basically growing by acquiring smaller agencies You're you're looking at the big fish and you're basically saying hey like obviously this VA system of like having a bunch of Filipinos go and comb through all of your data and generate these reports is not scalable or practical. We've built a solution for you.

Martin: Exactly. Like I would say we could sell to anybody, honestly, the benefit of our product isn't really there if you're not doing at least like a meal. So I just don't want to sell our stuff early to the guys that won't really benefit from it and ruin the reputation for the future, right? In the future, maybe we will do a CRM, maybe we'll do like a traffic tool. And then of course, anybody is welcome because it benefits everybody. But right now our focus is just on the bigger agencies.

Francis: How did you actually recognize that need in the market, right? Because there's not that many, I mean, there's probably maybe a few hundred agencies that are making the mill plus a month that are operating at the scale to necessitate this product. How did you come to actually recognize, like, were you having conversations with agency managers and you were like, this seems like something that I can, like, these are problems that I can solve. Like, how did you actually come to the realization that, OnlyFans API is going to be a useful product for these people?

Martin: So it wasn't really like that. I originally built it just for the developers, as I said, right? Like we only had developers at the beginning and I just, I don't know, called any type of stuff you want. Because basically that's the principle how Microsoft or Apple grew their systems, right? They built an infrastructure, but then when you get like... huge amount of developers. You know, there is the famous video of Steve Ballmer or whatever is his name, where he's just like super sweaty on the stage and he's like developers, developers, developers, developers. That's how they grew. And my thing is like, why not just allow this type of stuff on OnlyFans, right? If you get like huge amount of brain power who can just build anything on top of the platform, we can build like the infrastructure for that. So that was like the first principle, but obviously agencies are a huge market as well. So we started building out tools from them themselves and also providing like custom development services. So that's how I came into the realization they're actually willing to pay for that stuff, especially if it's high quality and then they can rely on the numbers they see. Then we can of course provide that because like the team, everybody there is like super technical. So it was like kinda a right founder with like right history with drag records and also the ability to build out the platform. So also good market that wants it. All these like bigger, bigger agencies are very keen on automating their stuff because look, honestly, my biggest problem is like working with, or like managing a lot of people, right? I don't like that. I like smaller teams, very efficient. Everything powered by software automatically. If anything goes wrong, you can just change few lines of code. And suddenly within like few minutes, few hours, you see the results instantly. You don't have to retrain the entire team, whatever. You can just do it like with a code or like click and click and it's done. The simplicity. I like that.

Francis: It makes perfect sense. I mean, it's funny because obviously like software development and creative operations are wildly different fields, but I operate in exactly the same way. I would rather have a very small, very agile team where everybody's kind of in sync and operating on the same wavelength, especially with creative work. It's sort of impossible to do it any other way. The larger the team is, the more ideas you have and the more incoherent those ideas get. What? Okay. So talking about the product itself, what are some of the more common use cases that you're seeing, you know, to the extent that you're able to share, obviously you can't share individual level like or agency level user data, but like what are some of the more common use cases that you see that these big agencies are using OnlyFans API for that you would like recommend like, hey, if you're looking for this specific type of solution to this problem, these are what our users are doing.

Martin: So probably sure like a three that are pretty common. As you said, I can't share the agency specific ones, but they're building out CRMs. We have a lot of CRMs like on the platform and they are working very well. Then there is like new entire platforms in general. For example, we have some guys who are building a separate platform that is complimentary to OnlyFans. So basically agency comes in and they, they can basically plug in their OnlyFans, but they can also spin up a profile on the new platform. The new platform, their benefit, I'm not sure if I can talk about the name, so I won't mention the name right now, but they basically get the new platform as well. So any content they post gets automatically posted on OnlyFans, FanView, whatever, but also on the new platform. And the new platform benefit is they bring the traffic for you because they have a huge media buying team that can operate it on a very good margins and profitably, whatever, blah, blah, blah. That's their stuff. And they can also give their chatters access to OnlyFans as well. So when the agency has some chatters, they can chat on OnlyFans and also on the new platform and any other platform in the same interface. So there's like very big differentiator for them because now they are not like competing against OnlyFans, they are just new complementary platform. And if that new platform works better than OnlyFans, it brings you more money, then cool, you can just use both of them at the same time. Also there's like, they're creating an entire ecosystem of like agency operations into one platform. And it's also on the web. So your chatters don't have to download any third party software, whatever, everything is on the web. Then third one is for example, some agencies track their chatter response time and chat quality. They run some AI on top of the new chats. For example, when they onboard a new chatter, they want to evaluate their performance within like the first week or first two weeks. So they monitor how fast they respond, was there a close ratio? from non-paying user to paying user, how well do they convert? And they can also see like the dashboard of the messages they send and if they see anything suspicious, like for example about meetups or whatever, they can just tell this chatter that, please don't do it because our accounts will get banned. And the fourth one, probably AI chatbots. We see a lot of AI chatbots coming on, which is like big space in my opinion. I talked about it with Max from AllNefinder. Only Finder as well. And he thinks he's like, this is a super big area as well. And I agree with him because previously the AI shot bots, they were built by Silicon Valley nerds, right? And they don't really see like how the chess on OnlyFans should look like unless they partner with some big agency who can provide them data, right? It's not really a good approach in my opinion, because they're not in the space for like years. For example, some of the guys from like Tdm, Unleash, Unruly, whatever. They've been in the space for like years and they know what works. So I think those agencies should build the chatbots, not really the Silicon Valley guys because they don't have the data really from, from all the things like how should you, how should you chat? How should you find the, the person to actually buy the first piece of content, et cetera. So yeah, my opinion on that is agencies should build the AI chatbots, not really the Silicon Valley guys.

Francis: Not wait for other people to basically build it for them and then have a suboptimal product.

Martin: Yeah, because obviously, yeah, obviously we get like, some agencies have very specific creators. And if you train a general AI chatbot on like some general stuff, it's not really going to perform because LLMs just work like that. You kind of just system prompt your way into ideal chatbot, right? You have to actually train it on the real data. And some girls have very specific chats, like she can be a cosplay girl combined with the goth. Cosplay girl, whatever. If you just system prompted like how you are behaving as a 21 year old ghost cosplay girl, blah blah blah, it's not really going to work very well.

Francis: Right. It doesn't really understand if the specific, like, let's say like the shared cultural vernacular of like what people are expecting when they go to that page, like the specific keywords, the specific language or attitude or tone of the model. They're not able to integrate any of that.

Martin: Yes, vernacular is a very good word. Your English vocabulary is much richer than mine. So thank you.

Francis: I do have the advantage of being a native speaker, so on the topic of AI chatbots, what kind of innovations are you seeing there? Like what of the agencies that are using AI chatbots, what are the primary use cases? Are they using it as like a selling tool as a qualifying tool? Is it just to like keep messages going, like keep conversations alive? What are the, what do you see as like the future of that space?

Martin: So one interesting thing I saw was basically their welcome messages for new fans. Because with the OnlyFans API you get a webhook. For example, if a new fan came in and they just subscribed for the first time, you get a webhook. And webhook is kind of like a trigger. So this action happened, this is what needs to happen now. And one thing I saw was they basically took the name of the fan that just joined and they generated like a welcome audio message. in the tone of the girl, in her voice, right? They do some AI voice cloning stuff on their side. And now they are building out like actual video. So the girl laying in her bed, whatever, will send the video like, hell, welcome Francis, welcome to my profile. Here is what I do, blah, blah. And it looks fucking amazing. I was surprised how well it looks and how realistic is it. But let's talk about numbers. I've seen agencies who previously with like manual chatters did like 7 % close ratio and when they migrated to like AI chat, they are doing like 15%. Just because just to double their closing ratio, just by training the chat bot on the previous and obviously doing some stuff on top of that. some small adjustments, but mostly it's a qualifying. Let's say we have hundreds of fans, hundreds of fans come in and you just want to see how many of them are spenders. And once they purchase the first piece of content, you can move them to like real person, real chatter, right? Because they can obviously I haven't seen a chatbot that's that can build up whales. but just like filtering out the non-spenders from, from spenders, works really well. Then when they spend for example like 20-50 $ on a PPV, you can move them to a chatter and they can do like the building up of the whale.

Francis: So it's basically using it as like an incredibly skilled SDR. That's like, you're basically taking, you know, from in, like B2B terms, you'd be taking like a small to medium business account all the way up to it. Once you develop that relationship with the customer, then you pass them off to a real, like an account executive who's going to take that to the enterprise level. What do you see? So from a technical perspective, the AI chat bots, I think are really interesting. I just had a conversation with super creator. I don't know when this video will go out, but that conversation is going to be published tomorrow, which is December 12th I think they obviously have Izzy which is their chat bot that's integrated directly into their CRM I think they have an incredible product and I think that they kind of have first mover advantage on that for an agency That is bigger where super creator I think is tailoring that product primarily towards independent creators and smaller agencies for an agency that's of a sufficient size to really get a lot of juice out of a product like OnlyFans API, what are they doing to the extent that you're able to share to actually build out these chatbots? Like, is there a pretty big technical hurdle that you have to overcome? Do these people have like in-house development teams that are building these chatbots or is it basically just like a wrapper?

Martin: So they usually do two things. One is they have like their own ML engineer who will take care of it. The chatbot I mentioned which went from like 7 % closer ratio with real chatters to 15%, they're just one guy. That one guy, he's not like very ML, like machine learning skilled, and he still managed to pull this off. So like the barrier is pretty low. You can just fine tune some llama or grok or whatever on your real data on the previous chats, you will just say, Hey, this is a good chat because it went it like the outcome was some content was sold and this is a bad chat because no, basically the fan hasn't purchased anything. Right. So like the training right now for the, for the chatbots is pretty simple. The second option is you just come to us. We have like technical team that will do it for you. And that's the two, two ways. You can do it right now. By the way, Super Creator, I heard about it. It's pretty good. The easy thing I heard good stuff about.

Francis: Yeah, I think it's incredible. I think that there's obviously a lot of room for improvement. I think the best use case for Izzy right now is primarily as like that SDR qualifier where maybe you sell some cheaper PVVs and then pass it off to that, that AE level employee. Pretty similar to what we're talking about now. I don't know if their sales figures are quite that impressive. But that was going to be my, that second part of your answer was going to be my next question, which is, that something that you're planning on integrating into OnlyFans API? Just have like a, like a white glove chatbot service that they can just sort of plug and play.

Martin: Yeah. So like our grand level thing is to be the app player. Same as Apple is for basically hosting app store. That's our goal as well. Like for us to be the app store, we have a lot of like pre-built tools that you can just come in, click a few buttons, configure it and everything will work just automatically. So for example, there will be like an app, for example, AI chatbot, right? Or revenue tracker, whatever. Weekly reports manager, I don't know. You will just come in. Click a few buttons, select on which accounts from your agency should it run and it runs automatically and you can see the logs like what kind of actions is it performing so you can just control it. Like, hey, is it actually doing what I want it to do or not? Right? That's where we are going.

Francis: Very cool. What are some of the apps that you guys are working on right now? Where do you see a lot of demand currently in the industry in its present condition?

Martin: Reporting is definitely like the biggest stuff because if you have again I will say agency with like hundred creators and they need to get accurate revenue at the time of the day. So for example at midnight, 6 a.m. noon and again at midnight. So you get like four four points in time per day per hundred creators. That's basically manual operations that you would have to do with like real VAs, right? And there is like 400 opportunities to make a mistake, to make a human error. But for example, you you type the coma in the wrong place, whatever, and now your numbers are off, right? You, for example, select the wrong tracking link from the, from the table and you don't know, there is just no way to check it back. With software is different because software is like deterministic. You can be 100 % sure that this is the piece of data that they actually want. So for example, one of the apps that we are building out first is the revenue tracking. and revenue or like weekly reporting of which accounts performed the best, which traffic sources performed the best. So yeah, that's one of the apps we are building out first. The second one will be probably like fan personas, like what kind of fans are actually joining. What is his name from Harpoon? It's you, right?

Francis: It's me, yeah.

Martin: Yeah, so you had a very good idea with Harpoon, like to actually pre-qualify the fan, right?

Francis: Before they ever hit the page, exactly. Right.

Martin: Yes, yes. And just plug that directly into like a CRM or into your notes.

Francis: Very cool. Yeah. I mean, that's something that I would love to. We've, we've sort of sunset at harpoon temporarily. Just have like so much other, the consulting business and the creative off side of the business has taken off in a way that I didn't really anticipate. and that's the stuff that I really love doing. I'm not a developer. Like it was all built on by coding. So I would love to see somebody take that concept and do it at scale. So I'm very glad to hear that that's actually happening. What. Are some of the technical challenges that you face in the development of OnlyFans API? Because from my non-technical, non-developer understanding, OnlyFans doesn't really make it easy to integrate with their backend. Everything is scraping. There's no public API for OnlyFans. So having something, building a tool that requires so many of these integrations, what were some of the challenges that you guys faced in the development of this product and how did you sort of overcome?

Martin: So the challenge is mostly being rate limited. Even if I talk to only monster guys or whoever, you just get the rate limited all the time, right? Because you need to basically have a lot of data and scrape a lot of data to have accurate numbers and actually be sure like, hey, this is correct number. And I'm always talking about numbers, but honestly, this is a numbers game, right? You need to operate on percentages and on the times of be accurate to the... tens of dollars, not thousands of dollars, but tens of dollars. So just having accounts that are large, like very, very large, with like millions of fans and actually being able to get all of the data into our system so we can do any reporting on top of that is difficult stuff, but it's solvable for us. We can do it.

Francis: Yeah, yeah. Speaking of, okay, so talking about rate limiting, I would imagine that your pricing structure is probably based on number of actions taken as opposed to like a flat monthly subscription. Explain that a little bit.

Martin: It's very cheap. It's just based on the amount of accounts and not even based on the size of the accounts. It only costs like $29 per month per account. No matter the size, it can be an account with a thousand fans, it can be an account with like tens of thousands of fans. It still costs $29 per month and then it gets cheaper. With like 500 connected accounts, it's only like, if I'm not mistaken, $12 per month or $11 per month per account. It's very cheap because we can just operate it with like the technologies we know and we use. We can just operate it very cheaply. So we also don't try to be super greedy and just charge you a lot of money for a great.

Francis: From a non-technical perspective, how does that work on a cost basis for you guys? Because my understanding is this is more like a Zapier type product where, like obviously with Zapier, you pay X amount of cents per action taken. So if you have a webhook that's like somebody fills out a Google form and then that populates to a Google sheet and it sends them an automated email, you're paying every single time that happens. How is it that you guys can afford to deliver this at like a flat monthly rate per account? when presumably there's a lot of actions that are occurring on the back end as a consequence of all of the things that you're setting up for your customers.

Martin: So same answer, we just have a very cost-affordable infrastructure at the same time it's high quality. So for example, our proxies for the account are always like dedicated at any point of time, you only get one IP assigned to the account. And then one thing I forgot to mention is with like the $29 per month, you get credits and credits are basically used whenever you Like as, as agency or as a developer, you send any request to our API. But for example, we'd like the tracking links, you do the revenue attribution on the backend and we don't charge you anything for that. Right. It's just, we'll take that cost, we'll eat that cost and you will just get the raw data. Like for example, how much revenue did it bring? Right. Because on the backend, we have to do a lot of stuff like go through each of your transactions, assign them to this and this fan who's subscribed through this and this tracking link or free trial link. We just do it on our side. We don't really care about charging you for that. So yeah, you get a 10,000 credits. If you send more than 10,000 requests on that account, you have to top up the credits. But again, the credits are very cheap as well. So it usually costs like $1 per 1,000 credits. So you get like 1,000 requests to our API for $1.

Francis: Got it. Okay. Very cool. What you're working with some of, presumably some of the largest individual agencies in the space, to the, again, to the extent that you're able to share, what are some of the, like maybe non-intuitive insights or like, are some of the biggest players doing that maybe a smaller or medium sized agency that's listening to this can incorporate into their business? Like for instance, the conversation that I had with near from super creator, one of the insight they obviously have access to. an enormous, incredible amount of information. Basically all of the CRM providers have this sort of God's eye view over the entire OnlyFans ecosystem. One of the interesting insights that he pointed out was that the single biggest correlation between chatting and revenue is just raw number of messages sent, which is not something that's not a conclusion that I would have necessarily arrived at independently, even though when you say it out loud, it kind of makes sense. What are some of those things that maybe you have some insight on or some visibility on that an individual agency might not?

Martin: I couldn't tell you out of the top of my head because we don't really monitor our users' chats right now. We only do it when they, for example, want to do AI chatbot or whatever. But what I could tell you from our perspective is they're just focusing on replacing the VAs with the software. And at some point it will for sure be a measure to do things for the smaller agencies as well because Now they won't need to go on donut jobs or wherever to hire their V18 because everything from plugging their data from OnlyFans to their reporting sheets or creating content calendars for girls, all that can be done within the OnlyFans API. By the way, we are renaming it or rebranding it to JustFans API. It's got much more to do with main. So yeah, that's the stuff they do. For in our opinion, like smaller agencies could benefit from as well.

Francis: Do you see the industry, and I think this is a perfect segue into the next thing that I wanted to talk to you about, which is another product that you're working on. Do you see the industry migrating towards like full automation? Like, are we going to be within the next, let's say like 12 to 24 months in a place where every agency has AI chat bots? There's like very few real chatters. And most of this stuff is, you know, most of the stuff that's being performed by low cost VA's is just going to be fully automated. Do you see the entire industry moving towards that space?

Martin: Yeah, I think like the AI chat will be very big because obviously your biggest cost as agency, one is model, right? And the second one is chatter. So usually you pay like 20 to 30 % of your revenue to chatters. Having just reduced the number by the factor of two, basically increase your margins from 60 % to 80%, just like from Deducting the chat is a very big step up for agencies. So yeah, think every big agency or even smaller one will get into the AI chat as well, especially if it gets like very good and you can operate much better margins, get the replies much faster. So for example, you would go from like three minutes response time to 20 to 30 second response time, customize or like personalize the messages even more towards the fans. So you can build out the relationship.

Francis: Which is sort of ironic given that you're talking to a machine. They don't. But yeah, on that subject, are you still working on fantasy GF?

Martin: Look, I don't need to know. Yeah, here and there, but the main focus is mainly on the fan's API. Because on the fantasy GF I have like separate things that take care of that.

Francis: Got it. So those products I think I'm very interested in because obviously the more and more that only fans as a product migrates towards these AI chat bots at some level, like a lot of this content is just going to be AI generated. So maybe explain to the audience what fantasy GF is. Like I don't even know what, the name for those products is. I call them like AI harems, but I don't think that's quite right. Like what, what is fantasy GS and like, where do you see those types of platforms? Like, do you see them taking up a percentage of the OnlyFans market share? Do you think that they're going to be used by separate audiences entirely? Explain to me a little bit more about all that.

Martin: AIHRM is a crazy name for this. I like it. We call them AI companions, but fuck it. I'm just going to call it AIHRM from now on.

Francis: It's not just one, one model. You're talking to it an entire, you know, the platform has thousands, not tens of thousands of them.

Martin: I think it's the same audience with different intent. So like AI harems, the biggest sell point there is you can basically create your own girl from zero, right? You can customize her, you can choose her ethnicity, you can choose her hobbies, you can choose her personality, hair color, voice, whatever, right? And you can be a little bit more, it's a good word, like unrestricted about the stuff you talk about, like... For example, on OnlyFans you can't talk about meetups, Even if it's just a fantasy or whatever, you can't really talk about it on OnlyFans. You can type M33T, but you're gonna get flagged for that as well. Yeah, so the platform there is like with AI harems or AI companion apps. That's like their sell point. You can be much more wild in the chat because you are in... You know, you are not really talking to like a real person, right? You know, it's AI chatbot. It's always like disclosed, like, Hey, this is a fantasy chat. It's doesn't represent a real person or real scenarios, whatever. Right. And at the same time, it's, it's a bit cheaper because you don't have to pay like $20 for PPV. You can just generate an image for like 20 cents. Yeah. So on OnlyFans is a little bit different because that's There is the human factor, right? You know, it's a real girl. You've seen her somewhere on Instagram, you've seen her on TikTok, whatever. And you basically want to build out like a relationship with her. So with AI, you know, it's not a real person. It's just a fantasy. I think most of the users that use, for example, FantasyGF or like AI Harems, they use OnlyFans as well. So even if the same principle is everywhere, like even if you are agency, you probably use... multiple CRMs or multiple APIs. Honestly, there is our API and that's it. But yeah, you pay for multiple things with different expectations, right? So it can like eat into the market, but at the same time, it's not the same thing. You know, you are not talking to a real person. You know, you are never going to meet them.

Francis: Yeah, You think that they're going to be, it's going to be like a, maybe some market share, but fundamentally the user is there for a different experience. And that there's probably a lot of cross pollination between the platforms. Basically. What do you see? on the note of like humanoid sex robots and AI companions, AI harem sites, only fans on a broader, you know, this is like a non-technical non-business level. This is just something that I think about a lot. We live in a world where birth rates are plummeting. There's like.

Martin: Yeah, exactly.

Francis: Let's say that like the relationship between sexes in general is probably worse than it ever has been. People are not getting in relationships. People are not really interacting with each other in real life in the same way that they did even 20 years ago. Do you see our industry as like a, let's say a symptom or a cause, right? Is, we, are we giving people the tools to like retreat from real life in a way that is having a meaningful deleterious impact on those huge like species level problems? Or do see it as more where just like serving, serving an existing demand and they're going to sort of exercise those destructive tendencies elsewhere? Do you think about that at all?

Martin: A little bit, yeah. Look, my honest opinion is just have kids as many as you can, as many as you can, because they birth rates, especially if they're planting, that's not a good sign. Like you want to have kids like as much as you can, as much as you can afford, as much as you can basically attend to them. But our like entire industry, ever since it was like created, right, is detrimental to like society. Yes. And I think everybody knows that, everybody can admit that. There is not really a net positive in porn or whatever. At the same time, it's the same thing in the process. If somebody is an alcoholic and you operate a gas pump or a gas station, and he comes to you and wants to buy some liquor, and you tell him, no, you've been here for past two weeks and every single day you bought three bottles. If you don't sell it to him, It will just go to the next gas station, right? So we are like the providers. Yes. And yeah, I think the industry was built a long, long time before us, before we were even born. It would just somehow happened to be involved in it.

Francis: Yeah, and we're able to do it. I think the biggest difference on a, I guess, on a philosophical level is the, you know, original iteration or instantiation of this industry is something like prostitution, right? Where there's a real person involved and that person is only able to, let's say, service one John at a time. Whereas now you're talking about an OnlyFans page that has a million followers. And even though it's only a small percentage of those subscribers to a million follower page, they're ever actually going to purchase content. It's still one person that's able to service a million people. And there's a team of, you know, there's a team of people behind that, but the multiplicity of the model, the woman, whatever you want to call it, I think is a huge differentiating factor in let's say the harmfulness of this industry versus others. And obviously I'm a participant in this industry. So I'm not like, I'm not, I'm not like having some big moral grandstand or like questioning any of this. These are just things that I like to think about at sort of. coming from a neutral, philosophical or ethical perspective. I think that these are interesting things to think about and it's something that people in this industry should consider as opposed to, you being in denial.

Martin: I'm pretty free to admit it, I'm the industry, I don't really care that much about other people's view on it. Because honestly, it can be a stepping stone for anyone. Usually people who are in the on-fans and they make enough money, they reinvest it into other areas as well. So it can be a stepping stone once you make enough money. Then you get into whatever else with bigger leverage. I don't know, real estate or like... B2B, SaaS, whatever. Yeah. And that's pretty much my opinion about it. And yeah, from the moral standpoint, you have some morals, right? Like, unusual agencies or you or whoever. We have at least some type of moral barriers that we won't cross. The principle again is like, just don't be a horrible person. Whatever you do, just don't be a horrible person. Make grand view for everything. Don't scam people. Don't try to fuck people over. And yeah you can sleep in peace you don't have to worry about anything.

Francis: I have a lot of affirmation for, I think the guys at TDM really embody that principle of just like being legitimate professional actors in this industry and kind of giving everybody, you know, in some sense, a role model to look at that agency and say like, Hey, these are guys that are like doing this legally. They're, they're compliance forward. They treat everybody in the industry with respect. They're giving their models opportunities that they otherwise wouldn't have. At the end of the day, we're, in an interesting industry because like fundamentally we're exploiting, we're customers. As opposed to like the historical instantiation of this industry, it's typically the, the model, the producer of the content or the provider of the service. That's the one that you get exploited. Really they're getting a great deal out of this. It's the customer at the end of the day, who's maybe not getting quite what they're paying for, what they think they're paying for. But it's so it's, interesting to think about, right? As a business owner, I'm able to provide opportunities and a lifestyle for my employees that, know, they otherwise might not have had. I just hired a video editor. He's like a fresh college grad, super talented, amazing, love working with him. He's probably going to make six figures next year. And that's not like a, you know, that's something that I was able to provide for him at the same time. That's for it cost of, you know, hundreds or thousands of fans who are like, you know, sort of deep in this well of loneliness and experiencing these issues. So the, like the whole harm reduction analysis is very difficult and it's a whole, it's a whole rabbit hole. We're getting you lost.

Martin: I saw you had the Liam from TDM on.

Francis: Yeah, the image. Great guys.

Martin: Big shout out to TDM because they were, I think, one of our first customers who actually started with the API and that's where we saw the opportunity to go into the bigger agency space and that's where our product actually makes sense.

Francis: Yeah. Yeah. Those are the third degree guys. Last question for you. Same question that I in the show on for everybody. You're in your, I'm going to ask you from the product developer perspective or the software engineering perspective. If you're talking to somebody, maybe that you at the beginning of your career, what is something that you wish you knew when you got started either as a developer, as an entrepreneur, like what is the one piece of advice that you would, if you could go back in time, you would give yourself.

Martin: Just focus on one thing, make it your primary thing and just try to pounce on it as hard as you can. That's pretty much it. One more thing, just have fun. I was scared to buy stuff because I'm from like... I want to say poor family because that would be like an insult to my parents, but definitely not rich family. And I was always scared to spend money on whatever, right? And first and tell it... or Andrew, I don't know, he had like a small video clip, like some 19 year old guy asked him like, hey, should they buy Bitcoin or M4? And he said you are not gonna get your dick sucked in the backseat of a Bitcoin. And that's like kinda my opinion on life. Just have fun. If you have the money to buy some cool car, just buy it. If you wanna take your girl on some vacation, just take her. Just have a little bit of fun with it because if you're just gonna hoard the money, what are you gonna do?

Francis: Yeah, I love that. That's a great quote too. All right, man. Well, well, thank you again for, coming on. If anybody wants to check it, if you're a larger agency or a smaller agency that just wants to check it out, I will have a link for OnlyFans API in the description. Click that, check out the product, test out some of these apps and tools. Martin has built something really, really cool here. I think that you guys are going to, I think you're going to accomplish your goal of being the sort of base infrastructure of OnlyFans moving forward. So I'm excited to see that happen for you.

Martin: App store for OnlyFans. Let's go. Francis, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank everybody for watching the pod. I hope it was fun and hope to speak to you again very soon.

Francis: Yeah, I'm sure we will. Alright, have a good one, man.

OnlyFans API: Building the Invisible Infrastructure Behind Million-Dollar Agencies