The Great Scaling Debate: Horizontal vs Vertical OnlyFans Management - Full Transcript

In this landmark conversation, we hear from both sides of the OnlyFans management scaling debate. Matt from Hive Media represents the horizontal scaling approach — managing many models at lower individual revenue with systematic processes. Francis Roth advocates for vertical scaling — fewer models with higher individual revenue and more personalized attention. This is the full transcript of their discussion.

Talent Management: All right, so today we've got Matt from Hive Media. Some of you might be familiar with Hive. They're a big player in the space. They're very helpful, very active in a lot of telegram groups. Hive is a top 100 OFM agency with a little bit of a twist. So Matt has built a business that pulls down nearly eight figures annually, exclusively with Latin American salary models. So super interested in how this conversation is gonna go. Thank you for coming on the show and taking the time, man.

HiveMedia: I appreciate you having me on and anybody who knows me knows I'm an open book. I'm always here to help out as many people as possible. I think that one thing that's different is I'm an older guy in a space full of usually young lions. So I usually have a little bit of a different perspective including on how we've approached the business as a whole coming from a salary perspective.

Talent Management: Love it. And we will definitely get into it. So if anybody watching some of you are probably going be new viewers, but if you've watched any of my content, you know that this horizontal scaling like salary model approach is basically the opposite of the approach that I advocate for on this channel. So I thought that this would be a fun opportunity for you and I to have kind of a friendly debate. You arguing in favor of horizontal scaling and then myself arguing in favor of vertical scaling.

So before we kind of get into the meat of the conversation, Matt, why don't you kind of introduce yourself, share a little bit about your professional background to the extent that you're comfortable doing so, and then tell us the story of how you actually got into OnlyFans management.

Matt's Background and Entry into OnlyFans

HiveMedia: So thanks for the introduction by the way. Thanks for having me on. A little bit about me. I'm a Canadian born obviously entrepreneur. I've been in business for myself for about eight years now. I come originally from corporate construction, which is a complete 180 to a technology based internet based business. So I started my adventure nine years ago as an owner, starting within the construction industry. Originally come from corporate construction. I'm basically starting from scratch.

I had a business partner at the time. He owned multiple businesses, about 20 different business lines. He kind of mentored me as an owner, as an entrepreneur, building up a business from a million dollars a year when we first started it to over 30 million dollars a year in commercial industrial construction with over 300 staff. So if anybody knows anything about construction, it's very system intensive, especially on the larger scale construction. So when you're talking about having thousands of trade people on a site, carpenters, plumbers, HVAC technicians, structural guys, drywallers, you gotta make sure, you know, walls are going up, the piping and the electrical is going on the wall before the drywall goes up. And there's multiple steps and there's a lot of systems involved in the construction practice.

Having that construction background coming into this industry, I actually accidentally found this industry three years ago, helping out a friend essentially. That was a model at the time, a Canadian model. She knew I was savvy with business, with marketing. That's how I essentially found out about the industry. And then I caught the idea. So March, 2023 is when we actually launched our agency. So it's been just slightly over two years. So I'd say we were one of the younger agencies out there on the larger end of things.

And for us, it's been a very much systematic, strategic, and people, manpower and system approach to the industry. That's mostly been on either black hat completely or on the branding side. So coming from more traditional systems and people management, this is how we chose to build our business. This is how we got into the business.

Why did I decide to abandon construction and jump into this? It was purely a margin thing, I'll be honest, and an opportunity. This is a brand new industry. OnlyFans has only really been around for the last five, let's say plus years on the OnlyFans management side of things. Where construction's been around for thousands of years, as industries mature, opportunities become more finite, you have multiple billion dollar players in the construction field where you don't have essentially as established people who own market share within the OnlyFans field. I saw an opportunity for, you know, come in, make an impact on an industry, be one of the first adopters and continue to evolve and grow.

And not to mention, like I said, the margins. Construction, if people aren't familiar with construction, construction margins are traditionally around the 10% or less range, which is why you don't see publicly traded construction companies. The margin and the risk profile is just not necessarily not there. So yeah, that's a little bit about me and the agency. So we came in, like I said, I came in kind of with a plan, a team from my previous business and a very strategic path forward with money in equals money out, which is why we chose to do horizontal growth via salary models versus a traditional OnlyFans model setup, which would be percentage.

Defining the Scaling Approaches

Talent Management: Okay, cool. Well, that's definitely plenty of color. We actually have a somewhat similar professional background. I don't come from construction, but I come from like industrial engineering and ops management. So similar in the sense of like you're building extraordinarily large teams of people, all of whom have to be trained systematically in order to achieve a common goal. But obviously you and I have taken radically different approaches to OnlyFans.

So I want to frame the conversation by saying that this isn't going to be like a true debate in the sense that neither of us are saying that like vertical or horizontal scaling is the correct approach to OFM or that there even is a single correct approach to OFM. What I see this as is an opportunity for us to say if a given operator, if the listener has X skill set and disposition and opportunities available to them, maybe scaling horizontally is best for that operator. And then if they have, you know, Y skill set and disposition and opportunities, maybe vertical is the way to go. And you can explain how to solve for X and I can explain how to solve for Y. Does that make sense? Does that work for you?

HiveMedia: I totally agree, like I said, I think that this is the beautiful thing about just business in general, is there's so many ways to go about it, especially this business. I think this topic is more even of a business topic. I always tell people vertically, horizontally, not only skill set, but it also depends on how long you wanna be here. If you're here to make a quick dollar, you're gonna be in and out in three years, well yeah, of course, I would say a vertical approach may work better, right?

Talent Management: Sure, yeah.

HiveMedia: Capital's lower, you know a lot of these different things that you don't have to do with vertical growing versus horizontal. But if you're looking for more maybe longevity stability and a more of a long-term outlook I think time also is a factor that can get factored in. So, you know, I think it's not only essentially your skill set but what your overall plan is within the industry as well.

Talent Management: 100%. So I think just really quickly for the viewers, I'm sure 99% of people listening know what we're talking about, but I do want to define terms so that we're all on the same page. So my position on this channel and just in general, I'm a strict advocate for vertical scaling, which basically just means that a majority of your revenue, in this case in OnlyFans, a majority of your revenue is going to be coming from a small number of models. So in my case, at peak performance, I was pulling down just shy of half a million dollars net on a monthly basis with three models. So you're investing much more into individual creators and you're scaling by growing those creators as opposed to scaling by signing a larger number of creators. Matt, do you have anything to add to that definition before you kind of explain horizontal scaling?

HiveMedia: I think that's pretty bang on.

Talent Management: So yeah, explain in your words, how do you define horizontal scaling and like what's the kind of scale that you're operating at in terms of number of models?

HiveMedia: So the opposite of few models and focused attention would be obviously many models. So our business model is essentially many models at a lower dollar value. So our target would be essentially in the $20,000 range. Most of our models when we bring them in is it's a very fixed budget. So again, many models with lower amount of revenue. That's essentially how we horizontally grow. And when we want to grow and we want to add more revenue, we are looking to add models. We're not looking at more revenue to models.

So this is essentially my definition. It's more of a fixed equation more than a variance and then on our side to vertically it's very much process and staff driven, SOP driven versus like talent and brand driven. This would be I think the other main differentials between the two. Like vertical you're really looking on that talent approach. You're looking at like a bespoke style where you're putting a lot of energy and attention into a model and building a brand, where we are more looking at a methodology approach, where just A, which would be our traffic, plus B equals sales, equals our output. So everything we do comes with a system and it's very much a guaranteed output versus having to build a brand.

Operator Predispositions for Each Approach

Talent Management: Got it. Okay. Well, that makes perfect sense to me. I don't think I have any color to add there either. So what the way that I want to approach this conversation is I want to break down each element of the OFM business and then we can both talk about kind of the pros and the cons of our respective scaling methodologies and then maybe the criticisms that we have of the other side. So I think my objective here is just to be as transparent as possible so that if maybe somebody is relatively new to the industry or they find themselves at kind of a maybe they've hit some sort of plateau, they're not sure what direction to take the business. They have all the information that they need to make the best decision for their agency.

Okay, cool. So let's start with operator predisposition. And what I mean by that is like, what are the traits or like the personality or the skill set that you would associate with horizontal scaling.

HiveMedia: I would say it's obviously organization and people. Why do I say people? At the end of the day when you're running in a corporate organization, you're really people focused. And I would say it's different people skills than let's say an operator in the sense that you know how to mentor, grow, train, systemize, identify talent. This is really what your core fundamental is, is internal. Internal to your business. If you're really good on the inside of your business, SOPs, driving people, system management, this is what I specifically look for.

And honestly, to me, it's more of a well-rounded, more traditional standard business approach. So I look at it as two different things. You have small and medium-sized companies, which are generally owner-operator-driven. And when I say small and medium, it doesn't mean revenue. It usually people. So it's you know you have an operator with a small team of people who are able to create great margins because the owner is involved in every single little thing. He does everything so the quality is much better. The service is usually much better. The margins are usually really great but the limitations is usually the limitations of the owner.

Where on the horizontal growth side you have medium and large businesses, which is more of a corporate approach I guess you can say, is you have multi-layer management systems. There's a lot more pieces moving. The owner may or may not be directly involved in every piece of the operation and things still work without the owner being there. This is kind of like how I would look at OFM, horizontal versus vertical is like more of a small personal business approach, owner operated business approach versus like a corporate business approach, if that makes sense.

Talent Management: That makes perfect sense. I think there are a small number of agencies that I think that are taking a vertical scaling approach and doing it at scale. TDM comes to mind and I'll kind of use them as a guidepost or a reference later. But I think generally directionally that's an accurate assessment that like if you're a solopreneur and you maybe don't have the experience with scaling large operations or managing large teams of people, vertical might be more attractive than horizontal.

The way that I like to think about it is maybe a helpful visual metaphor would be something like horizontal scaling is like mass production. You're like injection molding or bronze casting where you're basically you have systems in place and you can quickly produce many identical copies of in this case it's your strategies or tactics that you're sort of carbon copying from model to model using these molds and machines and the opposite of that would be something would be vertical scaling which I think is more akin to like sculpting marble.

So again, if horizontal scaling is mass production injection molding, vertical scaling is more like sculpting where you're working on this single block. You're trying to extract as much performance and detail from this one unique piece of marble. So it's more delicate. It's more deliberate. It's more intricate and it's more materially constrained. And as a consequence, I think vertical scaling is a better approach for people who have more maybe creative or craftsman like sensibilities.

So as a business owner, like I would say that I'm probably more of a craftsman than I am a businessman, which is why I went in that direction and subsequently like why I left management to do consulting and to focus more on creative work full time. The other element of vertical scaling that I think doesn't get talked about enough is that it is relationally more difficult. So if you're commanding a high price, like one of the benefits for me, and we'll talk about this when we get into the price and the costs and the margins, of vertical scaling is that your margins are super high. Obviously, your margins are also going to be predicated on your ability to negotiate a better rev share agreement.

And in order to negotiate the best possible rev share agreement, you have to have a personal, there's going to be a personal angle to the professional relationship between you and the model. I think this is potentially one of the bigger drawbacks of vertical. I think if I were to go back, I probably would have put more distance between myself and the models. I probably would have hired like account executives or some sort of handler but I think and this is not a failing of vertical scaling but more of like a personal or business failing I just got greedy and I wanted to keep my big fat margins as a solopreneur so...

Organizational Structure at Scale

HiveMedia: And again, so this is, I would say, just to explain our structure a little bit, I look at it as, OnlyFans is an amazing thing that you have multiple businesses within the business. And what do I mean? So when you look at, you said it perfectly, you would have hired model handlers, essentially. So we have a model management division within the company. And that's essentially what they are, their model managers, that their job essentially all it is is to work with the models, develop the content, making sure they feel good, that relationship part of it.

Then we have our media department, which is working with the model managers to curate that content, edit it, create the content for the socials. Then we have our marketing department — within our marketing department you have we have multiple different divisions. So we have head of marketing and then we have head of Reddit, head of Twitter, head of Instagram, head of threads, head of dating operations. And then they have their supervisors. And then we have our sales department, right?

So within the company, you actually see these different businesses within the OnlyFans business, right? There's model marketplaces out there, right? There is editing services out there. There is traffic services companies out there. There is sales companies out there. So, you know, the beautiful thing about this business is it's actually a bunch of business and skills all wrapped into one and this is where I find sometimes it's hard as an operator — you essentially have to be every one of those businesses within your businesses without being expert in your specialty on one and that's usually what drives your business upwards but you can't be a specialty in all of them so you're capped on it long term.

Talent Management: Yes. 100%. And I think one of the challenges with vertical scaling is that you have that degree of specialization, but it's even more specialized because you're talking about degrees of specialization within the creative endeavor, right? So if you look at, I've got a book sitting in front of me, incredible book. It's called the Set Lighting Technician's Handbook. And it's a 600 page reference book. It's as thick as my arm. And it's full of incredibly detailed text, incredibly detailed illustrations, and all it's about is lighting, lighting placement, electrical, and lighting equipment for film sets.

So when you talk about specialization, the degree to which you can become specialized in something as narrow as just set lighting, when you're talking about creative endeavor, the degree of specificity gets kind of crazy, but that's kind of a sidetrack. What you just touched on, I think is a perfect segue into org structure.

So you have all of these departments and then all of those departments have heads and presumably they're overseeing smaller teams. How do you approach, first of all, what is like, you know, give a quick high level overview of your org structure, roughly how many employees and contractors you have. And then what is your approach to hiring and team building and managing that corporate culture?

Hive Media's 300-Person Organization

HiveMedia: So we have 300 staff total across the business, which sounds crazy. A lot of people look at me and like wow, what are you doing with all those staff? So essentially we have 65 models currently signed. This is only just to give you a scope of how many models we have.

And I would have what we would consider an operator — so people like me and you — at the head of every division. So I want essentially specialists like me and you who are obsessive, who are high level people, people who have that owner mentality and entrepreneurial spirit leading the division, obsessing, doing the research, looking at everywhere they need. So that's the key to basically your leadership team is making sure that they're as passionate and driven like you.

To do that, you need to pay people. This is something that we, I think that doesn't get talked about enough in this industry is people are so hungry for the margins, need the money so bad that they forget about what drives your business, which is people. And these high level people, people who are gonna think like me and you, they need to be compensated and paid. So most of these people are either partners, profit sharing partners in the business, or they have a very high salary range, first world, tier one salary ranges, like a traditional corporate job.

So we have our upper management, this would be our executive team. Then each division has a manager, supervisor. Multiple supervisors depending on the size of the team — I would say one supervisor for every 10 to 15 staff. And then you have lead hands on top of that. I believe recruitment is the most important part of any business period. So we do have a full-time HR manager that all she does is hire recruit and maintains the people. I think this is a huge asset. The biggest asset to my business is my HR manager. She's pre qualifying people, she's making sure people feel good. I believe in having a strong culture.

So what do we look for in employees? I look for people who are looking for something long-term, who communicate really effectively. May not have all the skills but they know how to communicate and they're hungry. We can teach skills because at the end of the day this is a weird industry. It's not something — you're not gonna go out like a construction industry, like a professional engineering industry, like any profession and hire people who have long-term experience. So you essentially got to breed your own people.

Hiring Philosophy: Building from Scratch

Talent Management: Yeah, because that just doesn't exist. No one has been doing OnlyFans for 10 years. Absolutely nobody.

HiveMedia: Exactly. This is this thing with a new business, a new industry right — the industry is five years old and max you're gonna find somebody who's five years in probably three years of bad habits. And really there's no standard for the industry. There's no standard books. There's no standard education. So really the level of skill and thought process about one business is so diverse across people that I believe in mostly hiring — I would say 90% of our staff are hired from outside the space. We train them raw.

So again, good personality, good communication, responsible and want something long term. These are fundamentally the main things we look for. And then obviously you need to be somebody who's quick and can reason, troubleshoot. These are what I'm looking for in managers. So it depends on what level I'm looking for.

Hiring is one of the most important things we do. And I would say, I tell people we take a thousand resumes, we interview a hundred, we hire 10. We keep one. It's about a 1% to 0.7% hire rate because that is the level that you need to go through to find the right people.

So for any young guys out there looking — how do I hire, how do I look? We are using Instagram ads, we are using meta ads, we're using local job boards. We are also using multiple labor pools. I don't believe in one labor pool over another. I believe that every country has its own predispositions that there's good people everywhere and it's more cultural differences than actually IQ differences. That is the only difference essentially between countries is usually cultural — whether it's how hard they work, what type of mentality they have.

Like Filipinos catch a bad rap a lot of the time. I love Filipino people. I have over 100 Filipino employees. We have two offices in the Philippines. You just need to understand how they think. They're just not like, they're Asian. They feed off of Asian culture. They're a little bit more timid. But they are the most hardworking, kind-hearted people that when you find the right people, they're super dedicated, super die-hard, they just need a little bit more skill development on the cultural adaptation. So it's understanding, but yeah, hiring is one of the main key things that we do.

Vertical Scaling Organizational Approach

Talent Management: So question about that top-down approach at the scale that you're at currently. Which hires do you have a direct involvement in and which hires have you basically fully delegated to external teams?

HiveMedia: It's two levels down. So I'm mostly dealing with the executive team and the management team at this point. When I first started the business and we were say, 20 guys, you're always touching two levels down. This is what I tell owners and as you're scaling upwards, so I'm an owner, I hire 10 VAs. So now in those 10 VAs, I'm an owner taking care of labor or people. I want to develop somewhere there in a leader. Hopefully one of those is a leader and now I'm an owner developing a leader and employees.

If you're doing it right, that leader eventually is gonna take care of your leaders and your employees and you move up level and you're only dealing with leaders and leaders of leaders. And as you scale, if you're doing it the right way and you're investing in your people the right way, you're continuously upscaling from there and you're touching two levels down. And why do I say, do I wish I could touch everybody, invest in everybody? Yes, but it becomes a matter of time, energy and growth. You only have so many hours in a day.

So I touch executive team, management team. I lightly touch the supervisor team, but I don't have to supervise the supervisor team. Why? My executive team and my management team fosters them, cares for them, grows their skill, their talent, their passion, because there's not only the skill side of the business, but there's also the people side of the business. If you want people to care about you and your business, you've got to care about them just as much.

Talent Management: Yeah, absolutely. No, that's a perfect answer. And then inversely, vertical scaling, 100% about small agile teams. And I think, again, going back to that kind of operator predisposition thing, I personally think the vertical scaling is way better for solopreneurs. So if you don't have a partner, if you don't have somebody that you trust that's close to you, that you believe can co-operate the business with you, vertical scaling is probably the way to go.

The beauty of the way that I structured my business, if you're just getting started, and you have some creative skills, you can literally do everything yourself for that first like year. When you touched on it earlier, like the low capital, there's no startup cost to running a vertical scaling agency, especially if organic social is your primary marketing vector. I think I was making like $200,000 a month before I even hired my first full-time employee. Do I recommend that? No. That was just more of a consequence of like I had absolutely no exposure to the industry prior, so when I got into OnlyFans management, I did not realize that OnlyFans management was an existing industry.

So I had no idea about any of the concepts. I wasn't familiar with chatting. I wasn't familiar with, I didn't know that there was paid ads networks. I didn't know anything really. So I don't think that for most people, you should wait until you hit that 200K a month mark before you hire your first full-time employee. But if the circumstances are correct and you have the skills, it is actually possible.

Learning the Business from the Ground Up

HiveMedia: I think that's the only way to really start, in my opinion. If you're a small owner, you need to start, and that's, I kind of glazed over the first, helping a friend out, but that's how I started. I was essentially helping a friend, but she was running the content, she was sending me the content, I was cutting the content up, I was posting on social medias, I was going on the account, and I was essentially the whole back end of the business. I did every part of the business for about a year.

Even at the time, I was just an operator helping a friend out, but I did every part of the business, and I believe that every owner needs to understand their business. And I would not be where we are today if I hadn't done a year of essentially being every part of the business, being an editor, being a media VA, being a chatter, all these different things that you're essentially talking about.

So I would say that this is the best way to start. As an operator, maybe whether you go vertical, horizontal, that'd be debatable, but I think that you need to understand your business and the only way you're gonna understand your business as a new owner is putting your hands on it. I feel that's where a lot of people mess up. They wanna come in, they wanna delegate, they wanna hire, they don't...

Talent Management: Yeah, they want to speed run the process of understanding everything. They just want to hire out processes that they don't understand. But if you're hiring somebody to oversee a process that you yourself don't understand, you have no mechanism by which you can assess that person's competence. You have no idea what makes a good, in your case, a head of Reddit, if you've never done Reddit. You don't know what that looks like. You're just taking it on good faith that that person knows what they're doing.

HiveMedia: Exactly. 100%. I think this is a huge thing and I believe — for you and your story, it was very specific, right? You came in, you were an owner operator, you scaled a certain amount, and then you exited essentially to this. But I would urge most owners that as you develop your company after the first year, you start transitioning. Whether you do it in a horizontal or vertical phase doesn't really matter, but you should be looking for those team managers.

You were saying most people can't find that partner or operator. It doesn't need to be your partner or operator. It can be a key staffer, a VA that you hire you've built a relationship with, they're an employee, but now they've learned enough, they have enough experience, they have enough bond to you that they're really just stepping into more of leadership role in your company. This is another option than just having a partner as your business becomes more established.

I always say the first three years of your business — this is the one crazy thing about OnlyFans that I think is wrong. People come in and treat it not like a regular business — this is where the time thing comes in. It's not a get rich quick scheme. Is there a huge amount of money to be made here? Yes, but if you come at it with a real business plan, everybody can do well in this industry, just like you can do well in any other industry. The first two years are hard. No matter what you do, there's no get rich quick. The first year is hard. You're touching everything. You're working super hard. You may or may not be having success, but year two, year three gets easier. Why? Hopefully if you're doing it the right way, you at least hire a couple of key staff.

Most key staff are trained, right? You had a small team, but you did have a team, right? If I'm not mistaken. And your life gets easier, you're able to do more because those people become more experienced. So it really comes back down to that people, finding key people, mentoring and training those key people so that eventually your business, as it matures, your people, it's not even your business mature, your people mature and you're able to add more people and more things to your tree as your business evolves.

Creative Team Management for Vertical Scaling

Talent Management: Yes, and I'll get into that in just a sec. And I think even for vertical scaling, even once you break past that point where you're ready to start hiring, like you've learned the core fundamentals of the business, you understand what you excel at and where your weaknesses are. Small teams are still king because vertical is all about creative work. And when you're talking about a creative endeavor, the more people that are involved in a single project, the more opportunities there are for people to step on each other's toes or get in disputes over subjective preferences and otherwise unnecessarily complicate an already fairly complicated process.

I think creative work sort of requires a dictator. It can and it should be collaborative. You should have collaborative brainstorming sessions. You should take team input. If you're working with a bunch of creatives, it's very likely that they're going to have good ideas. But you need to be the person or you need to hire a person who has for a given model, let's say a specific vision, an overarching and deep understanding of that model's brand who can align everybody on the team and make sure that you're all moving in the same direction.

So I think core hires for vertical scaling for creative focused agencies, first and foremost, the first hire that I made is a tier one video editor and a VA for scheduling. And then once you kind of reach your limit on writing output or ideas for original content, because you're going to be, if you're vertically scaling, you need to pump out a lot of original content. Once you kind of reach your personal limit or you need to focus on other elements of the business and you can't write as much, you're going to want to hire script writers to keep those ideas flowing.

And then maybe the next step after that is like videographers that are local to the model who can work with them more hands on. And then once you're at that stage, you're managing multiple script writers, you're managing more videographers, more editors, you'll hire one or more — in your case, they're going to be, it's your executive team or your management team — from the creative perspective. It'll be like a creative director or manager who's now in charge of, let's say you have one creative director per model who can basically, they know everything that you do about that model's brand and they're able to pass that instruction and maintain that vision through all of the other creatives.

HiveMedia: So those are what we mentioned earlier, our model managers. So we do run in a small team format and how does that work? Each model manager is essentially a team. Each model manager maintains five to six models. And what does that look like? It's every week making content requests to the models. Because we work on a salary basis, right? It's a different format than, let's say, coordinating 100% with the model. The model managers don't essentially coordinate with the model other than making sure that the content's right, the delivery's right, maintaining them personally.

The coordination they're more coordinating the content with the team — so this would be like our creatives get done by our model managers and they build the content plans working with the team managers on the marketing team and the sales team. Each team, so as much as we try to maintain, because I agree 100%, just reinforce what you're saying. I agree in a small team format. Even within big organizations, you can still maintain a small team format, which is how we've established ourselves — basically one team is four to five models, a model manager, a marketing supervisor, a sales supervisor, and an editor.

So you have a little bit of everybody touching together and they meet on a weekly basis to coordinate their model teams, right? It's coordinating those, obviously what is it we do — it's content. Coordinating content for marketing, coordinating what's working on sales, what's working on marketing, issues, whether it's Twitter, whether it's X, whether it's Reddit, whatever it may be. So you can still maintain a small team, and I urge anybody who's trying to scale corporately to, I agree, everything still needs to stay in a small team format, because people still need to talk across the company, and this is where a lot of people mess up when they start scaling as they silo their businesses too much and you lose that personal touch.

Cost Structure and Margins

Talent Management: Let's talk about costs and margins. Because to me, and you have an interesting perspective on this, because from my perspective, it seems like most of the horizontally scaling agencies that I speak to are relatively low margin. You seem to have conquered that problem. So I definitely want your input. But for me, the most attractive thing about scaling vertically is the margins.

If I'm taking all of my models I took from zero to earning millions of dollars. So if you're doing that and you've demonstrated an ability to do that, you can command a very high price for a full service offer. So my default contract structure was 50/50 up to 100K a month. And then I was awarded an additional one percent of net revenue for every 10K over that. So if the model was making two hundred and thirty thousand dollars a month, I was taking home 63% of net revenue.

HiveMedia: So this is after cost or pre like this is it profit sharing or revenue sharing?

Talent Management: This is just the rev share agreement. That's if she's making 230K net on OnlyFans, I'm taking home 63% of that. That's pre-costs. But as a solo printer, your costs after rev share can be extremely close to zero. You're obviously going to have your chat team. That's going to be most likely your biggest expenditure. But the most primitive form of a vertically scaling agency is literally just manager plus model plus natively posting content on socials on an iPhone. And organic social does not have any inherent costs that are associated with it.

And obviously over time you're going to want to invest in lights and cameras and interesting shooting environments and obviously a lot more into distribution and making sure that your content is being posted across many different platforms which is going to require some investments in infrastructure. But none of that is really ever required if you are consistently putting out a consistent high volume of A plus creative. I'm interested in your opinion on that and then on the cost and margin piece for a horizontally scaling agency.

Salary vs Percentage Model Economics

HiveMedia: So one, I think we're talking a lot about horizontal vertical. I think a big topic to bring in here is also payment schedules for the models. Because I want to dig on that first because it does feed way into this conversation a lot, because it's a cost. So whenever you look at salary versus percentage splits, what's the benefit? Because then we'll swing back to this.

So salary models, you said it right away. You had a 50-50 split with your models. So right away, you're giving up 50% of the margin. You're giving up 50% right off the bat. So if the pie is 100, you've now started with 50%.

Talent Management: Right.

HiveMedia: Right? Chatting, let's say, is anywhere between, if you're running a cheap Filipino team, it could be five, six percent, if you're running a high-end team. But let's say we put chatting between the 10, 15% range. I think this is a fair number industry standard. Right? So right away, now, let's say minus 10. We'll use 10 as a number. We're at 40% margin. If you had no other costs associated with your business, you're already at 60% cost with a percentage model.

In no realm of the world can you ever surpass 40%? That's if you do every single thing yourself and you don't spend a penny on creatives, on VAs, on anything else essentially. So we're with a salary business model. Now, what is it? You're also putting a lot more weight on the model. It's a partnership. You're expecting them to work. You're expecting them to do content. You're expecting them maybe to curate some content. They're putting in 20, 30, 40 hours as much as you because they're getting a fair value and like in a perfect situation you have a model that is super engaged with you. That's I'm assuming when you're going vertical you need a model like that is that correct?

Talent Management: Yes. 100% you need a hard-working model. You need somebody who's invested who is basically — my internal metric for is this somebody that's worth working with? If they are willing to make it their full-time job and like they actively want to be an influencer — not necessarily just in OnlyFans but they're passionate about the content that they're creating. That's like a requisite.

HiveMedia: Yeah. And that's I would say is what — less than 0.1% of women.

Talent Management: I mean, for me, it's the 0.01% on OnlyFans, right? I would only work with a model if I was confident that they could put a million dollars a year into my pocket.

HiveMedia: Makes sense. Where on my front, this is where I view it as almost like vertical is more talent agencies versus corporate marketing agencies, if that makes sense.

Talent Management: Yes. Yeah, 100%. I agree with that assessment 100%. It's much closer to the Hollywood agent model than it is to exactly like you said, like an industrial corporate structure.

HiveMedia: Yes. Which, and this is again, I don't think mine's better than the other. But in my opinion, if your business relies on talent, if one person can get removed from your business and you hurt your business that much, you don't have a business.

Talent Management: Yeah, I do have some pushback or response to that, but I want to save it.

Hive's Salary Model Economics

HiveMedia: So let's talk about percentage — we'll go back to this — so I think this is really where it comes down to where us. We work with models. They may be six, seven, eight, nine, tens. It doesn't matter. Let's say on from a looks perspective. Our output is not specific on — we have a standard we know that any model essentially can do ten to fifteen thousand dollars with about a five thousand dollars spend.

Talent Management: And that's on a monthly basis.

HiveMedia: On a monthly basis exactly, with our basic systems. It can go up from there, depending on that engagement. Do they like doing content? Are they a ten? Do they have that it factor? All these extra variables. We believe that any model can do $10,000 a month under our systems. What does that pretend? So this is our end goal. Our revenue goal, let's say, is $10,000 a month per model.

That consists of 15% for chatting, so $1,500 for chatting. Marketing at a $2,500 budget a month, so 25% for marketing on the low end when we start them. Overhead — so this is our offices, our staff, our management — 5%. And then you have the model — so model roughly falls around 10% when you have a salary model at $10,000.

Salary models go from anywhere from $800 a month to $2,000 a month. We start models on the $800 a month range and every month they're with us. They get an increase. We want the models to earn in parallel to what we earn. We do all the risk. We take on all the costs and these models only work — our deal with them is they work as a content delivery system for us. Essentially, they're only to work four hours a week with a very specific content request that's supposed to be easy and deliverable for them. We're not asking them to jump through hoops. It is four hours of work for a specific content delivery set and we have a very specific content approach.

And then we make these requests and we train them accordingly. So this comes us to about $5,500 a month in cost for a $10,000 output. Minimum, better models who deliver better content, who have that it factor. Maybe my marketing agent is a little bit better, a little more savvy. Can go anywhere from 15, 20,000. With the same budget — it's a fixed cost exactly — so that never changes. It's actually not — that's it's I don't follow a numbers. It's a percentage. So there's always 25% allocated to marketing.

Talent Management: But that $5,500 is a fixed cost, right?

HiveMedia: Yeah. So if let's say for the initial $2,500 spend I get $15,000. Well now my model cost is six and a half percent right, because it's fixed amount. So it's redistributing marketing. So now we have a $20,000 account. Well, guess what? My marketing is 25% of the cost. Well, now I have a marketing budget of $5,000 a month.

So this is a very strategic approach into investments and upscaling models as they do better over time and adding marketing to them, maybe adding paid traffic sources, maybe whatever it may be. We have a very specific traffic mythology internally. And then we just add more. Sometimes it's maybe adding another VA. Let's say I start with my $2,500 is two VAs or three VAs on the marketing side with some proxies and ads power, whatever it may be.

If they're getting us a delta that's getting us a higher return so let's add another VA into another system. How do we market? We do essentially scaled organic. It's very similar approach to what even you would say vertically. We do a brand, we do a niche for the model and then it's a matter of scale for us. It's always about scale and running organic instead of running one account we're running 25 accounts using technology and people as our driver for our marketing campaigns.

Scaling Challenges

Talent Management: Got it. OK, well, that's also a perfect segue into what I want to talk about next, which is what are the scaling and operational challenges as a horizontally scaling agency? You have roughly — just give me a ballpark, how many models?

HiveMedia: 65.

Talent Management: 65, okay. So that's a huge, obviously most I ever managed was three. That's like a factor of 20 increase, right? I want both like as you were building the business, that initial scaling, what kind of obstacles and issues that you ran into as you were growing the business, and now, what is preventing you from scaling up operations to let's say like 100 models or something like that.

HiveMedia: So you're gonna hear this in pretty much the entire podcast I've been preaching. People, people, people. It's people. It's a matter of bringing enough people in, scaling at the right rate where you have enough experienced people to start taking on more responsibility, having enough leaders to run new models. You can force growth to a certain percent, but then as you force growth without your people and your staff maturing, your quality drops, your margins drop, all these different things. So it's like you cannot force this type of growth. It is very continuous and consistent, but it is very people focused in the sense that you need time to develop and grow people.

So you can only scale. It's like a snowball effect, right? When you're early on, it's slow. That first year I'm saying it's really hard. You don't have experienced people, but if you're doing a good job with your people and they're staying and they're growing and they're getting better and they're passionate, well then you're continuing to stack on top of them and on top of them and on top of them. So, going into year, we're past, we're about two years, heading into year three. That was our hardest challenge was getting that first year.

You can talk to a lot of my main people I brought from my other business. I had a really good core staff, which I had a head start on everybody. But we all gave a piece of our soul that first year stretching ourselves to the limit to force grow the company.

Talent Management: Which I think that's a good thing, by the way. Like, it's, you need that. I think anybody that's just getting into this business and thinking, you know, back to your point, and sorry to interrupt, but people that come in and think that this is fast money, you need to earn your stripes, not just from a — you got to get your hands dirty and do the work. It's not just an aesthetic sensibility thing. It's actually incredibly practical, useful knowledge, because if you don't go through the struggle. If you don't invest a lot of yourself into the business, again, you're not going to understand what the core competencies that you're looking for when you start to grow your team. You're never going to be able to scale effectively. Or when you start to scale, you're going to have hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars of mistakes and headaches that you could otherwise avoid if you had just done the initial work upfront. So continue.

HiveMedia: Yeah, so that was our limitation — people. I would say now we're on the other side of it. So we went through a massive growing shakeup. We went through, we had three models at first, the first six months, then we jumped to 10, and then we jumped to 20 within the first year. So by the end of the first year, we had about 20 models. And then we decided just to shotgun it to basically 50.

The systems and the people you need in place to go from one to 10 is different, right? It just requires a different structure. Or from even 10 to 20 is different, but go from 20 to 50 requires multi-layer systems, even from our monitoring systems, like monitoring staff, monitoring KPIs across many accounts. All these, we had to basically reinvent the company. So we almost had to take two step forwards, push, force the company, almost kill ourselves as an executive team that first six months, stress our brains out and yes things broke. Were we super profitable that first big growth push? No.

But that is normal for any company that's growing. If you are taking a chunk of your money to reinvest in growth you are not as profitable. Your company expands and contracts its growth and with that contraction and expansion is also your margins. When you expand your growth usually your margins contract because you're using margin to grow. And then when you go to shrink your business down and really just home in on profitability, well your margins expand, you're not growing, you may be growing vertically I guess.

So this is you need to go through this expansion and contraction to grow your business, and we just forced it that first year. This is the biggest problem is, yeah, it's people. And what has been our biggest headaches is people.

Talent Management: Of course.

HiveMedia: And everyone can say this, if I get 500 good people tomorrow, I could scale a company infinitely. If you could have got 100 guys like you, if you could clone yourself, how much money would you have made as a solopreneur?

Talent Management: Infinite.

HiveMedia: Exactly, right? But that's what I'm trying to do every single day, right? With my VAs, with my staff, with my supervisors, my managers, I'm essentially trying to create more of me, more of my executive team.

Talent Acquisition Challenges

Talent Management: So all of that makes perfect sense. Something that I want to touch on and something that I failed to mention is that one of the scaling issues for vertical is, as you touched on earlier, identifying and working with the right talent, right? So just like you said, you know, I'm working with top 0.01% creators. That necessarily means that my pool of talent is going to be infinitesimally smaller than somebody like you. So what does the talent pool look like? Is identifying and finding talent a problem at all for you or is it really just a people problem and as soon as you have the people in place and you're prepared to grow the talent is just you go boom boom boom boom boom and it all plugs in?

HiveMedia: It's people, 100%. So there's infinite amount of girls. Just think in your own local town, everybody, how many hot girls are in your town that could make money on OnlyFans, right? There's infinite amount of these girls out there that are good looking. They may not be hardworking. They may not have that want to be a creator. They might not be super into social media, but there's a lot of girls out there that are just genuinely good looking. Whether you have big girls, have small girls, have college girls, have males. There's such a wide breadth of women in the world. So yeah, the talent pool on the model side is infinite for us.

But it's always my restriction on growth is always people. When I, let's say I churn out a model, it doesn't even hurt me at all because it's very literally the next week, the cashflow is almost replaced. You lose a little bit of the stacking effect, right? Which should happen if you're building accounts the right way — your accounts compound and build, your whales build. The accounts progress on an upwards trajectory. So you lose that compound effect, but your weekly flow of clients, we don't lose. We literally wipe the girls' social media accounts if they leave. Let's say Brianna decides she doesn't want to work with us anymore, because we invent names for every girl. We clear all of Brianna's 200 or 300 social media accounts and we bring new Brianna in and we start pushing new content. The week they're replaced because my staff is trained, accounts are warm, systems are in place. There is no, we don't blink an eye. It's literally the next week where the revenue is almost replaced.

Talent Management: Very interesting. Okay, yeah, and that makes perfect sense. That tracks perfectly with the business model.

Why Latin America?

Talent Management: There's one thing that I wanted to touch on that I forgot to mention earlier in the call. Why did you choose Latin America as your base of operations? Like you exclusively work with, correct me if I'm wrong here, but you exclusively work with LatAM salary models. A majority of your corporate offices are in Latin America. What about that part of the world was appealing to you?

HiveMedia: So it's very much obviously we're portraying North American models, right? So we're always looking for that traditional North American look whether it's the white blue eyes, blonde hair. So why we chose Latin America from a demographic standpoint? One, pay schedule, right? So people need to be happy with their pay. So Latin America pay schedule, people, $200, $300 a week in Latin America is a lot of money, period, right? It's a lot of money.

For people who say you're taking advantage of Latin American models, we mostly, to be honest, work with salary models who have already worked with other agencies. I would say 70% to 80% of the models we sign have already worked with other agencies on percentage deals and made no money.

Talent Management: Yeah, like just to clarify for the audience, I don't think anybody in OFM is super worried about the ethics of it. Not necessarily that there's an ethical issue, but I think it's important to note that $1,000 a month is more than enough to cover a luxury high-rise apartment in certain parts of Columbia. It's a solid living.

HiveMedia: Not to mention, a lot of these girls were doing OnlyFans, working 30-40 hours a week, doing everything themselves, making less than $100. They worked with an agency who had a split, they had a 50% split with an agency, but 50% of nothing is still nothing.

Talent Management: Yeah. Yeah, insane. Yep.

HiveMedia: So they've done a shitload of work on a split and gotten almost no results for it. So they understand what it is, they have appreciation and respect for what we do. The fact that we can guarantee them a base and what we provide them is security. One, and anonymity, so one, all of our models we run under different characters, under different names, and then number three, consistency and support. So they can do this while going to school, while having another job, and only have to do it a few hours a week. This is our biggest go-to when it comes to models.

This is, why did we pick Latin America? The price point. And the other thing is, I would say Argentina has one of the highest concentration of German exports, right? So that again, that look that we're looking for, blonde hair, blue eyes, North American, we do not look for, let's say, Latin looking models. So if they have that very Latino look, they have to be 10/11s with it factors if they have a Latino look.

Talent Management: Right.

HiveMedia: We'll satisfy for a seven that's white, blonde hair, blue eyes. They might look like a girl next door. She's not a fucking all-star. But she looks like a girl — you look at her like this girl's North American. But if they look Latin American, they have that Colombian look, they have that really, you know, more caramel skin, big ass, that very Latin look, they have to be a plus plus plus for us. So this is the main reason why we picked that demographic out of that part of the world.

Talent Management: So is there a bigger — from my perspective, like I never worked with Latina models, but my understanding is that there is quite a substantial demand for Latina creators. So is it just that you find that you're consistently able to achieve those results with models that look like they are of European descent versus Latina creators? What is the specific reason from a business perspective why you're optimizing for that look as opposed to the Latino look?

HiveMedia: It's exactly what you said. We are marketing to North Americans as North Americans essentially. So this is like anything — we still try to create creators. We try to create brands. We try to create identities for these models as North American creators because there's more money and there's more creators, there's more space within the OnlyFans ecosystem as a North American girl than a Latin girl. Your reach, the willingness of a fan to spend etc would diminish with a Latin American girl versus a North American girl if that makes sense.

Talent Management: Makes perfect sense, makes perfect sense.

Risk Profile Discussion

Talent Management: Okay, so last part of the debate, so to speak, I want to talk about risk profile. And I'm gonna get ahead of this, because you already kind of touched on it earlier. I think probably the most common criticism of vertical scaling is that because you are putting a high degree of investment into a small number of creators, if those creators, if I'm managing three models and they're all producing, let's say like 150 to $200,000 a month, if one of those models leaves, it can be — at that point, it's not catastrophically damaging, but if you're only managing one model, it is catastrophically damaging to the business.

Absolutely a real problem, but from my perspective, I think that there are a few ways to mitigate this, and it comes down to, there is the talent identification element, but I think it also comes down to quality inbound. So my perspective on this is that if you can build, if you have demonstrated that you can successfully build and reproduce massive personal brands for creators you can build a personal brand for yourself and despite saying in basically every single one of my videos these days for the last three months that I do not manage models anymore I still get probably five or six inbound leads a month for models that are requesting management.

And I just end up passing them off to agencies that I trust and I suspect that if I actually wanted to manage again and I started from zero, and I just oriented my content explicitly towards that I would have more leads than I knew what to do with within like three to four months. I think TDM is a great example of this. I'm 99% sure that all of their lead flow at this point is inbound. And in some sense, again, they are doing vertical at scale, but because they have that inbound lead flow, they get to be extremely selective about the models that they work with. And they're probably gonna hit eight figures a month sometime in 2026. That's if they haven't already.

And I think the other option that you have, so if you're not a TDM, right, because there's not that many TDMs out there, the other option is kind of, this is something that I don't know if you're familiar with Mike and his banana, he's got a great personal brand, but he's sort of hedged this by having a separate agency. So he's got his agency where he works with, he does vertical scaling and he works with the higher quality, higher potential creators, but he also has a separate agency under a different umbrella that's more horizontally oriented.

And so he has this kind of hybrid model where he's working more hands-on and building out these high margin, creative forward, vertically scaling creators. But then he has a separate entity that does something a little bit more like what you do, not necessarily with salary models, but just at a more generous rev share percentage. And these models are probably making, let's say 30 to 50K a month. So you have that base of consistent income in the event that one of your bigger models walks away.

So yes, if you're doing pure vertical and you have a very small number of models and one of them leaves, it is damaging to your business. But if you structure your business correctly, you should have people in the wings or you can hedge against that by having a stable base of income in addition to your vertical scaling creators.

HiveMedia: Here's my take on it. So first of all, I'm married. I'm a married man. I love my wife. I love women. It's not an odd — I believe that men and women are built differently. I believe society these days got really young, very traditional in that sense. We're, we all have strengths and weaknesses. Men are not good at a lot of things. Women are not good at things and we compliment each other very, very well.

I believe that in this space is in general having a partner that has all of the — which is the account that is the majority of your share is for me an unstable business venture. That this is why we chose to go with the model that we decided to go with because it's you have so many investments, so much money, so much time, so much energy into these individuals and it's just like a staffer. I try not to put too much power into one staffer's hands, just anybody in general, if one person can pull away from your business and your business is in trouble, well, that's not a very stable equation because people generally, regardless of how good you are, how amazing person you are, people go through ups, downs, sideways.

You go from being a nobody creator to a 250,000 a month creator with a million fans, you're gonna watch that person change and evolve with fame and money.

Talent Management: Oh, 100%. 100%. Yeah, and I think that part of, again, tying this conversation all together with it's about your operational predispositions, one of the things that you really have to be, you have to be extremely emotionally resilient to be in vertical scaling for that exact reason, right? If one of my models walked away, I have to be able to absolutely not care. I have to be able to take a potential multi-million dollar a year net revenue loss and just brush it off and keep going. Not everybody is equipped for that. So that's definitely a predisposition thing and that's a personal risk assessment calculation that you have to make. So completely respect your position there.

HiveMedia: This is where you're putting so much money and energy into a brand versus a system that is not replaceable. I would rather put money into a brand and a system that, like I said, when a model leaves, I don't lose the income. I don't lose the six months investment because the six months investment was into the staff and the systems and maybe the social media accounts that all get completely repurposed into a new asset, essentially.

Talent Management: Yeah. Yep. 100%. I agree with that 100%. What would you say are some of the risks that might be associated with horizontal scaling? Do you have any big operational risk?

HiveMedia: I don't think so. I think it's a more standard business approach than an operator or get rich quick scheme. I think that to be honest, I think that the vertical scaling works for people who think that this business is finite, that OnlyFans is going to be going away. And a lot of people came into this field like that, right? It's a new field. We can make a bunch of money. The early adopters, let's say three, four years ago, most of them aren't here anymore. A lot of guys exited the field when the field became difficult.

Right, businesses are new. This is just industries in general — you had it in drop shipping right the first two years of drop shipping everybody was making money as industries evolve, mature the level of skill required, the level of money required, the level of organization etc required to make money in industry advances, right? The margins usually compress and that's what essentially I feel has happened and been happening to the OnlyFans market. It's just matured.

Has it capped? I think — I mean there's at end of the day there's always gonna be an industry cap. But I believe it's more just redistributed, repositioning money now from easy money to it's spread out over lots of hands versus very few hands and then the easy money is just not there anymore.

Talent Management: Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that assessment 100%. I think maybe, so I think maybe you could say that the risk of horizontal would be something more like an existential industry risk. You have maybe more disruption risk because you've invested so much more in systems, whereas if you're vertically scaling, it's true that you are investing in brand and not systems, but the lovely thing about brand is that I can — all of the skills that I've developed in terms of being extraordinarily good at building unique differentiated brands. I don't have to apply that just to OnlyFans. I can apply that to if I decide to go into any other industry. Those are going to be incredibly valuable skills.

Whereas the way that you structured your business, all of the systems are endemic to OnlyFans. And so there's not a lot of, well, that's not necessarily true. You have a ton of skill across them.

HiveMedia: Yes and no, I don't agree with you because if your point is that the skills you develop can be applied everywhere else, I'll argue to you that the 300 staff that I have with the skills that they developed, I can apply them to any other fucking business moving forward. They're loyal to the business, they have a specialty, and then if something happens to the OnlyFans, I have no worries why. Because I have, you know, 30 managers, 10 executives, and you know, 300 other staff that are there to help us solve the problems, fix the solutions, and make money long-term.

Talent Management: And that's a big gun that you can point at another industry.

HiveMedia: Anything, any industry, I strongly believe that. I think your power is only in your people and that is if you have strong people that are aligned on the vision, skills are easy to teach, processes are easy to reinvent. People, loyalty, dedication, these are harder things to get out of people.

Talent Management: Yep, I agree. Okay, I think that that is a fair retort.

Final Advice for Entrepreneurs

Talent Management: Well, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. I think the viewers are gonna get a lot out of this one. I have one question left that I like to end every show on, which is a more general entrepreneurship question. If you could go back in time and talk to yourself as a young entrepreneur, or maybe you're talking to a young entrepreneur that's listening right now, before you started your first business, what is the one piece of advice that you would give yourself?

HiveMedia: I'll say it and I'll say it to young entrepreneurs and to me, things take time. I spent five years in my 20s, in my early 20s, trying to make things a success. I think a lot of guys are really hard on themselves, a lot of young guys, that business takes time. Business is built over years, not weeks and months. And then it's not the guys that have the best plan, that are the smartest, that win. It's the guys who continuously stick at it.

And this is even for myself. I consider myself when I was younger, I would bounce from idea to idea even within my own business structures, jumping, jumping, jumping to the thing that was gonna hit fast and go fast. Where in being a more experienced entrepreneur, it's really time that's gonna win. A lot of systems just take time. They might not be perfect. They might come in 5% efficient and then become 80% efficient over six months to a year. But everything takes time. Money takes time. Money does not come fast. Money's not instant. Money's stacked over months and years.

And anybody you're looking to try to — if you're looking for a quick buck, go to the casino. Spin the dice in the slot machines, because that's what I feel like a lot of guys do these days with business, and that's a lot of the message out in social media is move fast, get money fast, where if you look at a lot of successful entrepreneurs, it's actually the guys that have been in the business for a long time. This is the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh business that they hit it big, faster, and harder because they've accumulated a bunch of experience, talent, assets, et cetera.

The biggest thing is not to be as hard on myself, that things take time, and that — and then reinvest in yourself and reinvest in your business. Don't reinvest in trying to make money. Money comes to you when you do everything right. But reinvesting in your business and not scalping it and not living the high life, this is the other main thing, is I see a lot of guys in OFM flaunting cars, flaunting watches, flaunting this. And realistically this is money they should be putting in their businesses on future opportunities to make more money versus living just the high life instantly. So yeah this is old man talk I guess you can say.

Talent Management: Love it. Absolutely love it. Alright man, thank you again for coming on. It's been a pleasure speaking with you and I'm sure if you're open to it, I'm sure we'll talk again.

HiveMedia: The OFM industry has gotten a bad rap over the last few years and I can't change the world but I can change those I come into contact with and we're always trying to do everything to try to help as many young entrepreneurs as possible be successful so feel free to check out our community and that's all the shilling I'm gonna do.

Talent Management: Yeah, I'll make sure to have a link to — is it a Telegram community? I will make sure to have a link for that in the description. But once again, thank you so much and have a phenomenal rest of your day.

HiveMedia: It's Hive Media Group. Appreciate it. Thank you. Take care.